What did you do when you worked for the FS? Rec Dept yes?
In the post you quoted I am a complimenting the person that replaced you.
What did you do when you worked for the FS? Rec Dept yes?
when we were talking to the FS worker I asked him about what could be done to repair mud slide damage on the PCT just past Granite pass heading North.
Pacific Northwest Trail Association
On their second backcountry hitch of the season, our “Eastern Pasayten Trail Crew” spent another week working in some of Washington’s wildest country.
The crew was fortunate to have pack support provided by Vince, Soren and Cheeta Stremler, volunteers with the Back Country Horsemen of Washington. Their pack string carried over 600 pounds of gear to the Tungsten Mine Camp, a 42-mile round trip from the Chewuch Trailhead at the southeastern boundary of the Pasayten Wilderness.
With lighter packs made possible by BCHW volunteers, our crew was able to get a lot of work done on the Pacific Northwest Trail. Over the course of the week, they hiked over 46 miles and climbed over 9,000 feet to complete their mission to log out a few more miles of the Boundary Trail.
Using lightweight crosscut saws, muscle power, and teamwork, they removed 70 downed trees between Teapot Dome and Cathedral Pass and performed some annual maintenance to protect the tread along the route. The crew did drainage work, built 17 check steps to prevent erosion, and brushed out 3.5 miles of the PNT. Way to go everyone!
Our Eastern Pasayten Trail Crew (from left to right): Emily Peterson, BCHW volunteer Vince Stremler, Caden Hoyt, Thomas Shaw, Allison Gunther, and Sophie Manning.
If you are saying horses are OK with you because they clear Trails that's great.Jingles wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 1:20 pm To be perfectly honest if it weren't for some that use horses over the last several (10 to 15 years) Outfitters, Back Counrty Horsemen and some individual volunteers, that worked even without FS Blessings,i.e. Beauty Creek trail 1 person 3 days from Robinson Creek all the way to Robinson peak turn off after the FS abandoned the trail 2 years earlier, the trail maintenance load would be such the FS would just say forget it to much work and abandon even more of the trails.
A couple of the trails will need a powder monkey to actually get the trail safe for use.
Monument Trail beyond Eureka Creek, (at least last time I was that way) beyond the 13 switchbackswill take some mayor trail rebuilding especially in the slide areas
Will try to answer in orderFun CH wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 9:20 amJingles wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 1:08 pm I personally feel that bikes period should NOT be allowed on any trail. A person is out for exercise and to enjoy the out doors then exercise by walking those trails, yes it might take a little longer to get where you hope to get but IMO that also happens with increase in age, I know I can no longer hike @ 4mph with a loaded pack so I plan accordingly and enjoy what I can while I can with my limitations, yea it sux but so does getting old
How do you feel about horses using a trail? The rider gets very little exercise. I rode a bit when I worked on a cattle ranch up the Chilwist in the late 70's and the only thing I got from it was a sore arse.
Riding my bicycle up to cutthoat I get more exercise than walking up there plus I get an adrenaline filled ride down. That comes from the intense Focus required to negotiate obstacles and stay alive. It's a misnomer to think that we aren't enjoying the mountains while we're out there.
Hiking is really hard on my bone on bone arthritic knee and the bike riding really helps mitigate the chronic pain.
So I'd say, if you need an electric motor assist on a bicycle and have a special permit signed off by a doctor, why have all the arbitrary rules that restrict Public Access to only those who are healthy enough to enjoy it?
Those arbitrary rules carry the foul odor of discrimination.
On a bike ride up to Cutthroat pass, We did encounter a friendly Forest Service employee out taking surveys while enjoying his hike. I joked afterward, a little less talking and a little more trail work please.
How do you feel about horses using a trail? The rider gets very little exercise. I rode a bit when I worked on a cattle ranch up the Chilwist in the late 70's and the only thing I got from it was a sore arse.Jingles wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 1:08 pm I personally feel that bikes period should NOT be allowed on any trail. A person is out for exercise and to enjoy the out doors then exercise by walking those trails, yes it might take a little longer to get where you hope to get but IMO that also happens with increase in age, I know I can no longer hike @ 4mph with a loaded pack so I plan accordingly and enjoy what I can while I can with my limitations, yea it sux but so does getting old
I am down to 1-2 mph with a pack... age does suck... but retired, I have plenty of time...I know I can no longer hike @ 4mph with a loaded pack so I plan accordingly and enjoy what I can while I can with my limitations, yea it sux but so does getting old
At what point do you stop giving g special permits for the "SUPPOSEDLY" handicapped. Special permit to only those that have Handicap placards? Take time to look at some of the folks with those placards standing 5'4" and weighing 350 pounds is not a handicap it is a sign of laziness and poor choices in diet, just looking at them you already know they don't exercise except elbow bends from plate to mouth.Fun CH wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:36 amOf course you're not going to be able to accommodate every handicap through rugged terrain.Jingles wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 5:15 amHave to disagree the ones bitching about the noise of a gas powered chainsaw are the same ones that are to lazy to move a rock out of the trail or get out and volunteer a week end helping clear a trail. They are the ones that expect others to do for them and complain when it isn't done. Also with an electric chainsaw there would be the need to recharge the batteries nightly, so would need either multiple batteries and a way to charge them, and have yet to see an electric chainsaw that can handle a tree over 24 inches in diameter they are good for trim work
As far as people with infirmities being unable access the wilderness. Back in early 90's the Forest Service contracted to have the Methow trail widened and smoothed to the point it was supposedly wheel chair accessible, abput the only thing they didn't do was blacktop the trail, not a single person that was restricted to a wheelchair used the trail, Now let's take Andrew's Creek or Billy Goat trail to name but 2 do you expect them (the FS )to put in a powered escalator to just get up the hill at the trail heads. Having lived with a person that had physical limitations that excuse is BS
FS has 2 packers that is 2 pack strings going in different directions supplying at least 2 trail maintenance crews could be more, unless the packers are afraid to be in the woods by themselves or should not be called a packer
Packer loads pack animals rides to trail crew unloads pack animals and either packs empty mannies on first mule and heads back out or spends the night and comes out the next day
I'm talking about people for example that have arthritis, lung or heart issues that can't walk or ride a regular bicycle on a trail but can ride an ebike.
Currently I can ride my bicycle up to Cutthoat pass but a friend with lung issues is not allowed on that trail, and a lot more non wilderness State and Federal trails, with her ebike.
So zero access for her to public land designated as wilderness either. Her ebike does not do the serious damage to trails or is as dangerous to be around as a horse, but some ridiculous ethic defines the rules.
My friend loves to be with active people, enjoy the outdoors, the ebike keeps her physically active with light peddling and balance, and she's a very good technical rider.
Why not issue special access permits for people with medical issues? Don't they have a right to enjoy the benefits of public land while they still can?
Of course you're not going to be able to accommodate every handicap through rugged terrain.Jingles wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 5:15 amHave to disagree the ones bitching about the noise of a gas powered chainsaw are the same ones that are to lazy to move a rock out of the trail or get out and volunteer a week end helping clear a trail. They are the ones that expect others to do for them and complain when it isn't done. Also with an electric chainsaw there would be the need to recharge the batteries nightly, so would need either multiple batteries and a way to charge them, and have yet to see an electric chainsaw that can handle a tree over 24 inches in diameter they are good for trim work
As far as people with infirmities being unable access the wilderness. Back in early 90's the Forest Service contracted to have the Methow trail widened and smoothed to the point it was supposedly wheel chair accessible, abput the only thing they didn't do was blacktop the trail, not a single person that was restricted to a wheelchair used the trail, Now let's take Andrew's Creek or Billy Goat trail to name but 2 do you expect them (the FS )to put in a powered escalator to just get up the hill at the trail heads. Having lived with a person that had physical limitations that excuse is BS
FS has 2 packers that is 2 pack strings going in different directions supplying at least 2 trail maintenance crews could be more, unless the packers are afraid to be in the woods by themselves or should not be called a packer
Packer loads pack animals rides to trail crew unloads pack animals and either packs empty mannies on first mule and heads back out or spends the night and comes out the next day
Have to disagree the ones bitching about the noise of a gas powered chainsaw are the same ones that are to lazy to move a rock out of the trail or get out and volunteer a week end helping clear a trail. They are the ones that expect others to do for them and complain when it isn't done. Also with an electric chainsaw there would be the need to recharge the batteries nightly, so would need either multiple batteries and a way to charge them, and have yet to see an electric chainsaw that can handle a tree over 24 inches in diameter they are good for trim work
its a vocal minority.
Far as I know they still can. Biggest challenge is that crews might be in different places so supplying them with one pack string may or may not work.Jingles wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 7:18 am I remember when a 2 to 4 person trail crew could clear 5 miles per day cutting trees, building water bars, and removing rocks bigger than a clenched fist from trails that had a a 36 inch tread width with trails brushed back 3 feet wide from center line, trail crews went in for 7 to 10 days at a time.
A good packer with 6 to 8 pack animals should be able to keep 2 or 3 trail crews supplied without breaking a sweat and that is with rotating both saddle and pack animals.
Grant will help clear more trails accessing the Pasayten Wilderness
JUNE 15, 2023 BY MARCY STAMPER - Methow Valley News
Goal is to reduce big backlog of blocked routes
Trail maintenance is one of those things you don’t really notice until you hike or, worse yet, ride a horse on a trail that hasn’t been cleared and encounter an impenetrable tangle of downed trees blocking the route.
Maintenance is an annual necessity, since trees fall every year from wind or snow. Wildfire makes the situation worse, and can result in hundreds or thousands of fallen trees on a single trail.
There are almost 1,100 miles of trails in the Methow Valley Ranger District. In an average year, the district and its partners — groups like the Methow Valley Back Country Horsemen (MVBCH) and the Washington Trails Association (WTA) — maintain 400 to 450 miles, ranger district Recreation Program Manager Rosemary Seifried said.
A new grant will help clear even more of those trails to increase access to the Pasayten Wilderness, crucial for commercial outfitters and anyone who wants to reach the spectacular lakes and mountains in the high country. The two-year, $100,000 grant for the Pasayten Wilderness Project recently awarded to the Back Country Horsemen of Washington (BCHW) is earmarked for trails that lead to the Pacific Crest Trail and the Pacific Northwest National Scenic Trail, Program Manager Tim Van Beek said.
Their goal is to clear 200 miles, half on feeder trails, and half on the Pacific Northwest Trail, over two years, Van Beek said. “It would be great to open all the trails, but there are hundreds of miles of trails, and thousands of trees down,” he said.
The goal for this season is to clear the feeder trails. Once the trails are log-free, they’ll turn their attention to drainage, brushing and tread work — all necessary to keep trails open — most likely next year, Van Beek said. Several bridges need to be replaced.
The grant covers goals beyond clearing trails. BCHW hopes to bring attention to the need for ongoing trail work, ideally building sustainable funding so all trails can be opened in coming years, Van Beek said.
The grant will also help train people to pack in tools, food and other supplies on horses or mules, so that trail crews can get further into the wilderness and stay for a week or two, Van Beek said.
The support provided by the Pasayten grant is vital, since the ranger district’s pack string is maxed out, Seifried said. Having support from stock means trail crews will be comfortable and functional, she said. The ranger district has 11 people on its trail crew this year and a crew boss, plus two packers for 23 head in the pack string, Seifried said.
“Hopefully, the grant will get us out of the hole [for the main trails], and then we’ll have the bandwidth for side trails,” Seifried said. People are excited about the possibility of trips to high-mountain lakes, but some trails, like Peepsight, Eureka Creek and Ferguson Lake haven’t been cleared for years, she said.
The ranger district regularly teams up with partners like BCHW, WTA, the Evergreen Mountain Bike Alliance, Pacific Crest Trail Association and Pacific Northwest Trail Association — some paid, some volunteers — who help clear 25% to 40% of the district’s trails each year, Seifried said. Because the Pacific Crest Trail and Pacific Northwest Trail are officially designated national scenic trails, the ranger district makes it a priority to keep them accessible, she said.
The grant will help clear six feeder trails — Robinson Creek, Jackita Ridge, Larch Creek, Andrews Creek, Chewuch and Hidden Lakes — all of which connect with the Boundary Trail, an especially scenic route that traverses the northern portion of the Pasayten. While those trails have generally been accessible in recent years, last year was particularly bad for downed trees, and the district wasn’t able to log out all trails, Seifried said.
Wildfire impacts
In the past 20 years, 46% of the Pasayten has burned. The worst blowdowns typically occur 10 to 15 years after a fire, making it extremely difficult for trail crews to keep up, Seifried said.
A four-person crew used to be able to clear an arterial trail in two weeks and even have time to start work on another trail, but last year clearing some trails took three to five times longer, Seifried said. There were 700 downed trees in just a few miles on one trail last year — “it’s epic amounts of work,” she said.
The backlog of trail maintenance is being felt across the state. There used to be 22,000 miles of trails in Washington, but now there only 12,000 are still accessible, Van Beek said.
Although Van Beek is a hiker who doesn’t own a horse, pack support has become his passion. He ran WTA’s backcountry program for almost two decades. It was pretty humbling to learn what it took to make trail work happen — the only way to get something done when you’re working on a trail that’s 20 miles out is with pack animals, he said.
MVBCH members devote countless hours to trail work every year throughout the Methow Valley Ranger District. Last year, they were able to reopen the Billy Goat trail, where they cut hundreds of trees, 5 feet deep, every day, MVBCH president Cathy Upper said. “It’s a trail-maintenance nightmare,” she said. This year, The group also has projects scheduled in the Twisp River drainage, which accesses the Lake Chelan–Sawtooth Wilderness.
Training people and horses
At the Robinson Creek trailhead last week, Whatcom BCH members trained riders and their horses to pack gear. The training was followed by a kick-off event with representatives from the Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest and trail partners.
The riders learned to pack different types of panniers and the importance of balancing the load. “It’s partly about training people, and partly about training horses,” Van Beek said.
Stephanie Russo brought two horses from Snohomish for the training. Her 27-year-old horse, Tabby, took readily to the unfamiliar load. “That’s a good little pony — he’s just standing there. A lot of horses, doing this the first time, you’d have a rodeo,” Whatcom BCH Chapter Director Joe Remenar said.
The packer needs to be careful not to let panniers bang or rattle, since that can make the horse nervous. As the horse adjusts to the load, it learns to steer around trees, Remenar said.
Working with horses also helps people understand how to brush out a trail — the corridor has to be wide enough for stock, and overhead branches need to be cut to accommodate a horse carrying a tall rider, Remenar said.
Horses can typically carry 60 or 65 pounds on each side, plus lighter gear on their back, a total of about 140 pounds. It’s vital to have the weight balanced so the load doesn’t shift while the horse is walking. Once a horse is in shape after the winter, it can cover 30 miles in a day, Remenar said.
The pack trains typically bring in tools for trail work, a cook tent, propane, and food for a week, then return to resupply the trail crew and pick up garbage. Six animals can support a crew of 12 for seven days.
There’s a range of opportunities for volunteers — they can ride in and help the pack crew load and unload, or learn to pack their own horse. Experienced riders can often borrow a horse if they don’t have their own. And people can help with trail work. “We create opportunities for people to learn in the way they learn best,” Remenar said.
For more information, or to volunteer
For information and volunteer opportunities with the Pasayten Wilderness Project, go to www.bchw.org and click on the photo for the project. People can also email pasaytenproject@bchw.org.
To volunteer with the Methow Valley Back Country Horsemen, see mvbch.blogspot.com.
The Methow Valley Trails Collaborative also organizes work parties. This year, they’re focusing on bridge replacements on the Louis Lake and Cutthroat Lake trails, deferred maintenance on trails along the Scenic Highway 20 corridor, and work on trails affected by the Cedar Creek Fire. See the Volunteer tab at trailscollaborative.org.
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