Pasayten's Methow Valley Bulletin Board

Yes, I have several friends that really cannot get vaccinated due to certain health conditions. Thanks for the explanation and I too think people with fraudulent cards should be penalized, greatly.
Pearl

PAL wrote: ↑Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:15 pm Well now, that is interesting. Why would people who are unvaccinated be for mandatory vaxes?

My guess is that a pretty big slice of them are people who can't get vaccinated for medical reasons. Their odds of living through this pandemic go up dramatically if everyone else gets vaccinated.

I am all for reasonable medical exemptions on vaccine requirements.

I am also all for furious penalties for having a forged vaccination card, and for putting a system in place (mostly by tracking vaccine lot numbers that are on the cards) that would detect fraudulent vaccination cards. Pfizer and Moderna and J&J have the data on when and where vaccine lots were released, so if you live in the Methow but your fake vaccination card has Pfizer lot numbers that were shipped to Virginia you would have considerable explaining to do.

mister_coffee wrote: ↑Sat Aug 21, 2021 3:05 pm Even more on compulsory vaccinations and their legality:

Jacobson v Massachusetts: It’s Not Your Great-Great-Grandfather’s Public Health Law (April 2005 American Journal of Public Health).

A law that authorizes mandatory vaccination during an epidemic of a lethal disease, with refusal punishable by a monetary penalty, like the one at issue in Jacobson, would undoubtedly be found constitutional under the low constitutional test of “rationality review.” However, the vaccine would have to be approved by the FDA as safe and effective, and the law would have to require exceptions for those who have contraindications to the vaccine.

We don't have to like this situation, but it is damned clear to me that the way out of this that will cost the least lives is mandatory vaccinations. Any other approach will waste peoples' lives, time, and money.

According to your quoted link, a monetary penalty was imposed for those who didn't want to get the smallpox vaccine way back in the early 1900's. Smallpox had a 30% mortality rate,at the time. (covid 19 has an estimated mortality rate of 1.4%).

Still they didnt round people up a force a vaccine on them. Can't do it here. Period.

As stated I am in favor of a vaccine mandate, which imposes restictions on the unvaccinated.

A Mandated vaccine is different than a mandatory (compelled) vaccine (your preference).

Are you clear on that point?

Well now, that is interesting. Why would people who are unvaccinated be for mandatory vaxes? If I read that correctly. You're right about the disruptions. Maybe those against getting the vaccine will finally realize it. Now is the time. I think polio was mandated and others. As my husband explained to me, our parents were rational and they got the vaccinations, no muss, no fuss. (As are we, we think) So what changed that? Was it the Orange one or a combo of things?
Oh, what an interesting time, huh.
Pearl

I understand what you are saying, Pearl. But I suspect that a vaccine mandate is much more popular than you'd think.

Vaccine mandates are more popular than you think.

If you take Washington, 66 percent of the population has received at least one dose of the vaccine. That represents 75 to 80 percent of voters. My suspicion is that most people who received the vaccine would be all for mandatory vaccination. Funny thing is, some people who are unvaccinated (when you consider people who can't get vaccinated for health reasons, but still need the protection that would be provided if their community was well-vaccinated) are also for mandatory vaccinations as well. This will sell even better if you emphasize that there are reasonable medical exemptions.

I think this is an easy sell for elected officials. We are looking at the third year of completely disrupted education for kids (so that high school freshman who was pulled out of school in spring of 2020 is going to be a junior this school year). We are looking at even more disruption for restaurants. We are looking at an insane burden being placed on our health care system and the good people who work in it. This is really a no-brainer. And if not now, when?

The fact that it looks like the Pfizer vaxx will be FDA-approved in the coming weeks makes this an even easier decision.

Oh, and progress marches onwards: they are starting Phase I clinical trials of an mRNA vaccine for HIV.

I doubt if the states have the backbone to do that. What a ruckus that would cause. It's already bad enough with people whining about having to wear a mask. Maybe they could call the virus it a national security threat. If only the anti vax would have worn a mask and gotten vaccinated, we probably wouldn't be in this mess. But I hate the if onlys... we can't go back, but people could start getting vaccinated but they have a burr up their butt and they are digging in even more. I still say if a hospital reserves only so many beds for Covid patients and those beds fill up, then service is refused if not vaccinated. This is a harsh reality. But I think about this alot. Why should we, who do the right thing, be punished and not receive treatment, say, for cancer or other conditions. The Covid patients take precedence. But doctors are trained to save lives, no matter what.
No, this is a long haul. Covid will be around for a long time according to an article in the Atlantic Monthly. It may diminish and become like a flu or cold, with yearly shots. Or worse, a really killer virus could come around.
One way of "forced" vaccination is to do what is being done now and that is requiring it for entry into many venues, restaurants, the schools, hospitals, etc. But it didn't come soon enough. Conspiracies theorists really did a number on people, getting into their thinking on this one. An the Orange one did not help, but encouraged.

Even more on compulsory vaccinations and their legality:

Jacobson v Massachusetts: It’s Not Your Great-Great-Grandfather’s Public Health Law (April 2005 American Journal of Public Health).

A law that authorizes mandatory vaccination during an epidemic of a lethal disease, with refusal punishable by a monetary penalty, like the one at issue in Jacobson, would undoubtedly be found constitutional under the low constitutional test of “rationality review.” However, the vaccine would have to be approved by the FDA as safe and effective, and the law would have to require exceptions for those who have contraindications to the vaccine.

We don't have to like this situation, but it is damned clear to me that the way out of this that will cost the least lives is mandatory vaccinations. Any other approach will waste peoples' lives, time, and money.

No, just no.

Jacobson v. Massachusetts

Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905), was a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court upheld the authority of states to enforce compulsory vaccination laws. The Court's decision articulated the view that individual liberty is not absolute and is subject to the police power of the state.

... and it is still relevant and not been overturned:

...
During the COVID-19 pandemic, the federal United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit relied on Jacobson when upholding a Texas regulation halting abortions by including it in its ban on non-essential medical services and surgeries, consistent with Justice Blackmun's citing of the case in Roe v. Wade.[9] (See Impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on abortion in the United States.) Jacobson also has been a precedent case in justifying government face mask orders and stay-at-home orders throughout the COVID-19 pandemic.

Note that under the constitution the federal government does not have the authority to impose mandatory vaccination laws. But state and local governments clearly do.

Well said Chris. Thanks.
Here's a short article from Science News

A grim warning from Israel: Vaccination blunts, but does not defeat Delta
By Meredith WadmanAug. 16, 2021 , 6:55 PM
“Now is a critical time,” Israeli Minister of Health Nitzan Horowitz said as the 56-year-old got a COVID-19 booster shot on 13 August, the day his country became the first nation to offer a third dose of vaccine to people as young as age 50. “We’re in a race against the pandemic.”
SIGN UP FOR OUR DAILY NEWSLETTER
Get more great content like this delivered right to you!
His message was meant for his fellow Israelis, but it is a warning to the world. Israel has among the world’s highest levels of vaccination for COVID-19, with 78% of those 12 and older fully vaccinated, the vast majority with the Pfizer vaccine. Yet the country is now logging one of the world’s highest infection rates, with nearly 650 new cases daily per million people. More than half are in fully vaccinated people, underscoring the extraordinary transmissibility of the Delta variant and stoking concerns that the benefits of vaccination ebb over time.
The sheer number of vaccinated Israelis means some breakthrough infections were inevitable, and the unvaccinated are still far more likely to end up in the hospital or die. But Israel’s experience is forcing the booster issue onto the radar for other nations, suggesting as it does that even the best vaccinated countries will face a Delta surge."

David, for the umpteenth time, legally you can't round up people and force them to become vaccinated.

You can however legally mandate vaccines such as requiring them to attend public school.

One is a violation of your lawfully protected rights the other is not.

Start trying to round up people for a vaccine and your are going to have a lot of dead people

I just did an quick internet search and this came up.

https://www.wpr.org/what-does-law-actua ... e-mandates

"The reality is, legally, no, you can't be forced to take a vaccine. You're not going to be physically restrained and given a vaccine by any legitimate public health authority in the U.S. at the federal, state, tribal and local levels.

But that's not the same as a vaccine mandate.

A vaccine mandate means we're setting a condition on you returning to society or participating in a particular activity. And that condition is you're vaccinated.

States are setting vaccine mandates and private employers are doing the same because they can, legally. That's very distinct from a compelled vaccine."

Given how easily transmissible this virus is and how serious the consequences are, the only way out of this situation is mandatory vaccinations. I'd say reasonable medical exemptions (so you can't say that the vaccine interferes with your 5G) and religious exemptions (you can't found your own religion that says you can't get vaccinated).

Also, the infringement on your rights from being required to accept an injection (which has been shown to be super safe) is tiny compared to the infringement on your rights that other mitigation measures would produce. And those other mitigation measures would not be as effective as near-universal vaccinations.

Gov. Inslee should, unless the Fed gov steps in;

Start restricting access to public transportation, public land, publically funded medical services and large events such as all Sports games and concerts without a vaccine or medical exemption.

The economy was shut down at one point early on in the pandemic and masks were then required in all Public Health and Safety regulated businesses that were deemed essential services. Then later many other businesses continued to be closed or required a mask.

You couldn't even attend a sports event even with a mask due to restrictions in gathering size.

Now we have a more effective tool with the vaccine and its now go have some party fun even if you are not vaccinated. Just doesn't make sense.

And Pearl I never think you're being argumentative just for the sake of arguing.

Chris, what specific actions should Inslee take? Does he need to stop people traveling once again? Also group situations, since the Delta is more contagious, should be avoided or cancelled altogether? Twisp is having it's all class reunion, coming up in Sept. I think.
This all seems lax and inconsistant.
I am still doing what I did when Covid first came around. Going shopping when fewer people are in the stores, avoiding crowds, even outside not travelling except to some Dr. appts. Lucky I can still get in for those.
And wearing the trusty mask, even though vaccinated.
It is the unvaccinated driving the current rise in cases.
Thanks. Just wondering what you think he should do, not being argumentative.

I did see a news story about a nurse who does not want to be vaccinnated who is in direct contact with Covid 19 patients. So far she has not contacted the disease. She of course wears a mask which speaks to mask effectiveness.

I did speak to a 70 year, 240 pound man with a 49" waist line who has had 3 minor heart attacks. He does not want to be vaccinated due to a sincere fear of the vaccine causing a bad reaction, even though he is a prime at risk person for servere Covid should he catch it.

He reached this conclusion because a friend who was vaccinated told him it made him feel sick like he was dying for 3 days.

He does however social distance and wear a mask, so far so good.

So now we have indoor mask mandates again. However you can still fly, catch a train or bus into Washington State with out proof of being vaccinated.

Gov. Inslee tries so hard but falls so short of the action required to protect the health and safety of the citizens of his State.

The buck stops at his desk.

Oh, the irony:

https://msdh.ms.gov/msdhsite/_static/re ... /15400.pdf

us-health-officials-call-for-booster-shots-against-covid-19

https://www.king5.com/article/news/heal ... I-IVHyYKac

New orders coming down from the state.

All school employees, with exceptions for health and religious beliefs, are required to be fully vaccinated by October 18th.

Indoor mask mandates are again in effect.

Again, about damned time.