All things about Whitebark Pine

[PAL]

Was it so peaceful and non-disruptive as you think? Why did I get an email from 2 Market board members asking what can be done about protesters and booths allowed into the Market.
The Market has guidelines and bylaws. There is probably a thin line there between free speech and not being able to express oneself.
To have a booth at the Market one must apply and be accepted. Walking through, with a sign and sure yelling out is quite nice isn't it, but keep walking and stand outside the Market.
Yes, you got alot of support for free speech. But not for disrupting the Market. Your being upset with Paul is quite understandable but it is between you and him.
Trying to make the community better-great! But according to who's viewpoint and beliefs, which should not be imposed on others.
You have said in the past that this BB is not good for the community time and time again.
And BTW, I told the market board not to have any political type booths. And that included the hospital levy as well as FOP or any other hot button booths.
One other thing, I remained neutral in my discussion with the board members. No bad mouthing of you at all.

[Fun CH]

Chris, you go on about how this BB is hurting the community. Do you know you may have hurt the community by your behavior at the Farmer's Market this past summer regarding the pool? You yelled out at Paul Butler while he was playing music. It was disruptive and the Market vendors remember what happened. How did that not affect the community?

Peaceful protest against a groups political self interest gain is a hallmark of our country. Yes that includes chanting "dollars for millionaires". The FOP was out in force that day with Paul playing music on the main stage and Bo and Blue at their political table.

Last time I saw Paul at the Twisp community center was the fall of 2012 soon after the FS put his special use permit on a 5 year probation for not disclosing additional environmental damage that his cooperation was doing up in our North Cascades mountains. Other measures were taken like no more user days which were being considered at the time.

That fall, he tapped ony truck window while I was using the library WFi and told me in an angry tone 4 times to stay out of Mazama, one time adding because we don't like narcs. He added a few choice name calling words like asshole and strange, all of which I took that as a threat and filed a police report with the Twisp police.

Pearl, how did my peaceful protest hurt the community? I got a lot of support from people who felt disenfranchised by that proposed FOP tax money grab. Of course the pool supporters didn't like it.

We BC skiers also got a lot of support for doing our citizen's duty in reporting unlawful environmental destruction in our mountains by a corporation holding a FS special use permit. Of course NCH Paul and his supporters didn't like it.

Funny how the pool supporters and NCH Paul supporters are many of the same people.

@Ray. You keep saying that I don't like your forum. Did I ever say that? Isn't the whole idea when you join any Community is to try to make it better?

Like I suggested read that book.

[pasayten]

I was doing good work building this community long before you showed up.

So what happened? You seem to have retired more than a few years ago….

With the way you hate this BB so much, you must have really lowered your standards to make over 1440 posts here….


Maybe you should leave and start your own BB where you can set the rules? Make it the pillar of the community molded in your own image…

[PAL]

Chris, you go on about how this BB is hurting the community. Do you know you may have hurt the community by your behavior at the Farmer's Market this past summer regarding the pool? You yelled out at Paul Butler while he was playing music. It was disruptive and the Market vendors remember what happened. How did that not affect the community?

[pasayten]

Chris…. Why do I keep hearing from you only…. Waah…. Waah…. Waah….

[Fun CH]

Do you really believe your forum is a benefit to this community in it's current form? That's a simple yes or no question but you can elaborate if you choose.

Yes…. Most recently getting the word out to voters on Proposition 1 and helping defeat it at the ballot box…

Your turn…. What acts have you done recently to support the community or kids???

You have made 1439 posts to this terrible BB forum? You are laughable….

What proof do you have that this forum had any positive effect on the no on prop 1 vote? This forum didn't exist in 2014 and as we all know a similar Metropolitan Park District proposal was defeated back then. And Political signs only boost voters turnout by 1.7%, if I remember correctly.

And why do you feel the need to add that last personal attack part? This whole "what good deeds have you done for the community" Inquisition is a page right out of the FOP play book.

And now in another thread you are cozying up to a FOP board member. Those folks wanted to take money from those who can't afford it to fund a luxury desire only a few would use and was really about building tourist attractions to compete with Bend, Oregon etc.

BTW, I have already posted in this forum the work I have done. I'm not going to buy into your false inquisition narrative to "prove my worth" to you. I was doing good work building this community long before you showed up.

I would really suggest that you read "Dividing Paradise" by Dr. Jennifer Sherman. Perhaps as a newcomer you will see the part that you are playing in dividing this community.

Chances are a Community member who is also Trump supporter has helped you more than you can understand.

[pasayten]

Do you really believe your forum is a benefit to this community in it's current form? That's a simple yes or no question but you can elaborate if you choose.

Yes…. Most recently getting the word out to voters on Proposition 1 and helping defeat it at the ballot box…

Your turn…. What acts have you done recently to support the community or kids???

You have made 1439 posts to this terrible BB forum? You are laughable….

[Fun CH]

Chris, I believe you pretty much wore out your welcome on most other BB's you were associated with... Maybe you are the problem?

And it's true... I don't know what works you have done... I can only imagine... Certainly haven't seen you around at any community/youth support activities I have attended...

Start your own BB... Then you can set your own rules and "decorum"...

both you and Jim keep making stuff up (building a Strawman) and then attacking that Strawman. And now you want me to defend that Strawman against your attacks?

This is your legacy. You built a forum where this type of strawman building personal attack behavior is accepted and is becoming the norm.

Do you really believe your forum is a benefit to this community in it's current form? That's a simple yes or no question but you can elaborate if you choose.

[pasayten]

Chris, I believe you pretty much wore out your welcome on most other BB's you were associated with... Maybe you are the problem?

And it's true... I don't know what works you have done... I can only imagine... Certainly haven't seen you around at any community/youth support activities I have attended...

Start your own BB... Then you can set your own rules and "decorum"...

[Fun CH]

Chris... Why don't you just do a search of "Thrasher" on this BB and see what comes up...

And you didn't answer any questions yet about serving or helping the community... Only deflection...

Some time ago I did search my posts for Thrasher and everything I wrote was a fact.

Like I said I don't have to defend myself to your or Jim's fantasy BS. You don't know me or the work I've done.

Much of this thread, and forum is ridiculous and getting more so.

Our community might be better off if you just deleted this whole forum or at the very least establish some rules of decorum. Do the work it takes to run a civil forum.

[PAL]

PAL wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 1:53 pm

"Uh, you called me a troll.
That's just a fact. Your post was designed to elicit a negative emotional response from me."

Chris, how you respond is up to you. Maybe you did the same with me. We are responsible for our emotions and feelings. When it is said sometimes, "she or he, made me feel bad," the person doling out the words that might make someone feel bad-it is the choice of the receiver if they want to feel bad or whatever emotion they choose. Instead of playing the victum they could say the person doling out the words are not very nice, putting the onus back on them.
And see I don't really care if you call me a troll. I was just pointing out that others may name call and so do you. Hey did you know I used to collect troll dolls growing up.

[pasayten]

Chris... Why don't you just do a search of "Thrasher" on this BB and see what comes up...

And you didn't answer any questions yet about serving or helping the community... Only deflection...

[Fun CH]

The only service/donation I am aware of that Chris has given to the community is worthless rhetoric...

You are obviously are not aware of much.

Let's look at your rhetoric describing the FOP board members during the anti prop 1 measure that you sponsored here and your other website.

Rays Quotes "He has a great heart for the community... Can't say that about some of the other FOTP folks."

"They are desperate and childish" end quote.

I can only assume that these new personal attacks from you are because I'm pushing back against your anti-trans agenda.

[Fun CH]

Ray,could you change the title thread or split off yours and Jim's posts to a new thread? Perhaps title it:

"Ray's and Jim's Masturbatory Attack Thread"

Masturbatory
"Excessively self-absorbed or self-indulgent.
vain, futile, pointless (having no real substance, value, or importance)"

Uh, you called me a troll.

That's just a fact. Your post was designed to elicit a negative emotional response from me.

[just-jim]

.
For the record….

I did - variously, over the years - fire information/evacuations and firefighter deaths, winter sports, outfitters, special uses, trails, wilderness, ski trails, closure maps, timber sales, forest plans, recreation fees, $ grants to the community, road maintenance/management, etc etc etc

I’ve also done volunteer work for and been able, fortunately, to financially support many local non-profits and served on the Boards of several, even before I retired. Now that I think about it…never EVER run into you volunteering. Or seen your name in print as a ‘thank you’ for donating your time or $. Maybe you have – if so, good on you…but doubting….

Yes, I know who you are, Chris. Met you nearly 40 years ago…..I’m recalling now, for some reason:
Me and other telemark enthusiasts like then Loup Manager Duey…and Polly and Jamie (Pearl’s husband Howard would remember them).. might have included Don Portman, too…can’t exactly recall; encountered you and your partner skiing at the Loup. You two were struggling – MIGHTILY - to learn that tele turn. Musta been early/mid 80s? Our group spent a while helping the 2 of you - verrry slooowly - part way down a run. I recall your partner being very gracious and thanking us for the help we offered. But, you were sullen and kinda snotty. WOW, color me – now - NOT surprised!

It’s what we did back then…helping each other. I think you’ve said that, here, too?
BTW – glad you FINALLY learned how to ski… (snicker).
.

[pasayten]

The only service/donation I am aware of that Chris has given to the community is worthless rhetoric...

[just-jim]

I did finally figure out who he is.…….

Wait…..Let me get this straight…..you JUST NOW figured out who I am?

Reeeally?

I’m probably one of the most easily identifiable local FS folk here in the last 40+ years! i’ve been associated with any number of FS and other community events. Not ashamed of it, either. Proud to have served my community.

But..….for a year plus you have put me in positions I never held and ascribed duties, responsibilities and accomplishments to me I never had? And blamed me for decisions, actions/in-actions and outcomes that I had no part of….all WITHOUT knowing WHO or WHAT you were talking to – or about? In order to bolster your tiresome argument about an ancient subject not resolved to your satisfaction? To prove some arcane, meaningless point? Or…was it only to try and make me look bad, incompetent, unskilled or unaware?

So…you’re now admitting you DID make stuff up - all along - about someone you didn’t even know about? And your very repetitive narrative about me – like that below and in other threads here – is just complete and utter bull***?

CONGRATULATIONS…on a new low in deceitful, dishonest argument. And a new low in character assassination.

You can make all the qualitative statements and judgements about me you want to. You can belittle me here …or my posts, my writings, my choice of words, or what you think my political positions or beliefs are…all that you want to; I don’t really care. But, I won’t let you continue some erroneous recitation of my duties and accomplishments and work history. Or what I’ve done during employment or volunteering in this community.

I await your public apology; complete and without reservation.
.

[PAL]

Uh, you called me a troll.

[Fun CH]

I take particular exception to when Jim trashes Trump supporters some of whom are my friends, good people and members of our community.

waah... waah... waah...

And you don't trash any community members, do you Chris? lol...

I try hard to use facts, but sometimes I get it wrong because I made an assumption based on someone's comments. But I don't try to deliberately mislead as Jim has implied.

When you guys who feel the need to trash our Community members who are Trump supporters or anti vax, I push back. Not because I believe they are correct, but because they have that right.

Ray it is your right to be Anti Trans, but it is also my right to push back against any type of discrimination or demonization of others. But I don't call you ignorant, stupid, bigoted, racist, or any other listed derogatory names like Jim enjoys doing here and your forum creation for some reason tolerates.

Names are not debate points. If someone posts a racist comment it is correct to point out that that comment is racist, but not make the accusation that person or group of people are racists.

Racism and other forms of discrimination are so embedded in our culture that often a person may not be aware that they are behaving that way.

You guys can trash me all you want because I know that that is not a reflection of my character, that is a reflection of your character.

[pasayten]

I take particular exception to when Jim trashes Trump supporters some of whom are my friends, good people and members of our community.

waah... waah... waah...

And you don't trash any community members, do you Chris? lol...

[Fun CH]

From one troller to another, thank you! And Merry Christmas.
Maybe for the New Year we should all practice kindness on here to each other, but do we really have to be kind when we talk about, dare I mention his name, Mr. Trump? Or other nasty people.
Plus this BB allows for free speech, even if "nasty". We still want to be able to express opinions freely.

Did you know notice how both Jim and Ray responded to your attack? They doubled down on it, and both said some particularly nasty things I suppose meant to demonize me and elevate themselves. And you think there's hope for kindness on Rays anti-Trans forum?

No you don't have to be kind to Donald Trump, but acting like him the way Jim does just normalizes Trump's behavior. I take particular exception to when Jim trashes Trump supporters some of whom are my friends, good people and members of our community.

I did finally figure out who he is. He wasn't at any of the forest service meetings that Backcountry skiers held with the forest service going back to the 2002 environmental assessment. He says he was retired at the time of tree cutting incidents and he wasn't at any of those meetings either, so there's no way he has first hand knowledge of any of this. On this thread, he says words matter but I've never stated anywhere that white bark trees were listed under the environmental protection act at the time.

I don't know if he had any input into the environmental assessment that doubled the number of user days and expanded the North Cascade heli scope and use. It's obvious that document was a failure as it did not successfully mitigate the potential harm that that operation ultimately inflicted on the environment and people that operation negatively impacts up there.

During the 2002 environmental assessment meetings the forest service asked Backcountry skiers to be their eyes and their ears in the mountains since they did not have sufficient personnel to monitor the permit. We did that and the FS threw us under the bus in favor of benefiting their corporate partner.

Both Backcountry skiers and an environmental group asked the FS for a stronger document to be drawn up as opposed to that weaker Environmental Assessment. We wanted a full-blown Environmental Impact Statement but that never happened. Why?

[PAL]

From one troller to another, thank you! And Merry Christmas.
Maybe for the New Year we should all practice kindness on here to each other, but do we really have to be kind when we talk about, dare I mention his name, Mr. Trump? Or other nasty people.
Plus this BB allows for free speech, even if "nasty". We still want to be able to express opinions freely.

[Fun CH]

I could care less about your rating system of trolling.
He knows what went down now because you have been talking about now for a long time. So now we all know what went down according to you and it is factual, I am sure. It's good you reported it. But you rake Jim over the coals because you don't like what he calls Thrump.

We are back to you wanting to moderate what is said and how it is said on this BB. Jim, like most humans respond emotionally from time to time.
So what?

That's a 2 on the troll rating scale.

@ Jim and Ray, nice personal attack guys, but I'm not that Strawman that you created and I definitely don't have defend myself against your BS.

[pasayten]

Off topic, but yes, I think Chris needs something productive to actually do...
Not sure what good works he has done for society or the Valley currently/recently...

Helping to feed any kids in 3rd world countries thru actions or donations?
Belong to any Valley service organizations like Kiwanis or the Cove?
Volunteer to provide services to Methow At Home seniors?
Participate in the Manger Mall or Neighbors Helping Neighbors programs? (I know Jim does)
Support or be involved in youth support groups like Let 'Em Ride? (I know his nemesis Bo Thrasher does)

I am curious Chris, you hassle Jim about his life's work career... Besides his successful FS career, do you also know of Jim's recent good works?
Besides different levels of rhetoric, what have your recent actions actually accomplished for others or the Valley?

[just-jim]

Chris, why are you slaying Jim? You paint him as a slouch. He did the best he could at the FS. 35 yrs with the FS, he should have a medal. Stop belittling him.
Do you need something to do?
Ah, you like the lively exchange and I will probalby get it from you now too.

Thanks for the kind words, Pearl!

This is pretty minor stuff actually. Counting the work I did during fire seasons after retirement, I did 44 seasons. A lot of it involved public interaction in a wide variety of settings…so I should probably have an honorary PhD in Dealing With Jerks.

I have not disagreed with CH on his recitation of events - just his continued use of ‘federally listed’ when referring to Whitebark in 2012. (Plus his general mis-understanding about how Special Use permits work and how decisions are made in the FS). His reference to the trees has no basis in law….it is just a useful term for him to inflame his narrative of an event that happened long ago. One which wasn’t resolved to his satisfaction. He wants Paul Butler strung up by his thumbs, I guess. The fact that it won’t happen just irritates him. Boo-hoo-hoo. Paul and Bo – and Blue and Larry - don’t deserve the continued verbal harassment.

In CH world, disagreeing with him equates to ‘derogatory’, always.

Also, NO one should play into his regular habit of starting a discussion with; ‘Have YOU quit BEATING your WIFE, yet??!!’ That’s a classic and VERY dishonest Hobsons choice tactic which then allows him to place you on whatever side of an argument he wants you on.

Please put your thinking cap on, though. Since the pool issue is past us, we need to find another bone for him to chew on and another windmill to tilt at – right? Otherwise, by spring he’ll be completely insufferable. Again.

Best holiday wishes to you and Howard!
.