"Biden, Kirby and dead, ungrateful Palestinians"

[Jingles]

Biden needs to worry about the foreign invasion at our southern boarder and keep his opinion about how any other country securing their country in his diapers

[PAL]

Ah sad world. If you search Frontline-Gaza, there are documentaries and the one I watched was "Failure at the Fence". The one before it, on the same program, looked at the history. I had no idea the fortifications the Israelis went to, to try to live safely. But safely at what cost? To know and live under the threat of terrorist attacks day in and day out. Another group also lives under the threat of terrorist attacks constantly all day long. The lack of water, health care facilities being bombed to smithereens. Oh, but it is necessary and necessary for the Israelis to kill their own. Oops, mistakes are made in wartime.
As I was watching "Failure at the Fence" I started thinking that the US may be vulnerable to attacks. And we have the domestic situations and possible attacks. Have we become complacent since 9/11?
It doesn't mean banning Muslims such as Trump did.

[mister_coffee]

... It seems there will never be peace in that region.

Well, the Romans sort of managed it about two thousand years ago. For a while. But they did so by killing nearly everyone and enslaving anyone they didn't kill.

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.

[PAL]

I don't know if the Frontline program I watched last night talked about the money trail, but it showed in detail how Hamas breached the "secure" wall that the Israelis were told would keep them safe. Hamas had been practicing maneuvers, out in the open, and as has been stated, the training exercises were ignored by the government. So they were not prepared and taken by surprise despite all the high tech remote controlled gun stations all along the wall, overhead balloons with cameras that were shot down by Hamas(which 3 were in disrepair and were being repaired).
Frontline may have this online. I have yet to check.
Yes, Hamas really messed things up for the regular Palestinian citizen, although they have been angry for years that they were ousted from their homes in places.
It seems there will never be peace in that region.

[Rideback]

From the NYT article:
'The ledgers, pilfered from the computer of a senior Hamas official, listed assets worth hundreds of millions of dollars. Hamas controlled mining, chicken farming and road building companies in Sudan, twin skyscrapers in the United Arab Emirates, a property developer in Algeria, and a real estate firm listed on the Turkish stock exchange.

The documents, which The New York Times reviewed, were a potential road map for choking off Hamas’s money and thwarting its plans. The agents who obtained the records shared them inside their own government and in Washington.'

[mister_coffee]

Iran really does not have that much hard currency and because of the ongoing sanctions due to its nuclear program. And Iran is one of three countries currently on the FATF blacklist, including North Korea and Myanmar. So it is hard to see how much money came from that source. Bluntly Iran will have better use for the dollars and euros they manage to grab than helping Hamas.

The smaller Gulf States are likely the source of most of the money.

[Rideback]

Ken, no, it's not as simple as you lay out. The reporting shows global reaches including Turkey, the US and European countries. The fact that Netanyhu and Trump both knew and shrugged their shoulders gave Hamas a green light.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/ny-times- ... no-action/

[dorankj]

Actually their financing is quite easy (and Hezbollah and the Houthis, PIJ) all from Iran who is flush with cash after reversing oil policy here, not maintaining sanctions of Iran and literally funding them with 6 billion. It’s so amazing that their terror budgets went up and Israel (and us) are attacked! (Sarcasm off)

[Rideback]

Too many of the threads arguing which side is at fault, buy into false histories. And the stories of the attack are diluted. Ken is right, women were raped so violently that their pelvis were broken, babies were put into ovens, and that's just the beginning. All this happened during a mutually agreed to cease fire. Hamas had been planning the attack for multiple years, they knew that Israel would retaliate just like they are doing. The people of Gaza are pawns. Hamas' priority is not to gain territory but to first and foremost annihalate all Jews and to do so in the most gruesome of ways.

Tracking Hamas is also a financial story to discover how and where they are financed. Bad news is that their financing is deep and hidden across the globe and that Netanyahu was made aware in 2018 of just where the $ were. Israel's intelligence community did not fail their country, it was Netanyahu's failure to act that failed his country's security. Good news is that the $500 million plus that was discovered can be frozen and maybe even seized. If that happens, those funds could be used to help rebuild Gaza because at this point the EU, US and ME neighbors are hesitant to open up their pocketbooks to help rebuild without solid commitments of a two state solution. Because historically Hamas and Palestinian leadership have refused the offers, no matter how good they were, their predictable refusal this round could leave Gaza without a means to rebuild.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ny-times- ... no-action/

[Fun CH]

I think it is important to keep some moral clarity here. Israel should be offered no excuses if they are intentionally targeting civilians or even if they are too uncaring about unintentionally targeting civilians. But Hamas started this war. Hamas started this war with a series of vile atrocities that shocked even some of their allies. And Hamas is still intentionally targeting Israeli civilians every day with their rocket attacks.

So there isn't any moral equivalence here at all.

"Since October 7, more than 10,000 children have been killed or are lost under rubble and presumed dead, according to a report by the Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor. At least 24,000 children have lost one or both parents in Israeli attacks and about 18,000 have been injured with some in critical condition."

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... WHrjk4_FVs

[PAL]

What happened in 1948? History in the link.

https://www.cfr.org/global-conflict-tra ... n-conflict

More ifs-"if they are intentionally targeting civilians.."or even if they are too uncaring about unintentionally targeting civilians. There are ifs because we don't really know for sure. Or but what is seen on the news. Some things seem quite apparant, many things do not.
At any rate, it's all bad. But history does have to be looked at.

[mister_coffee]

I'm actually kind of surprised that neither Hamas nor the IDF are using FPV drones in this fight. Both Ukraine and Russia are using tens of thousands of them every month, often to impressive effect.

And FPV drones cost about ten percent (or less) per target serviced than alternatives like air-dropped dumb bombs and unguided artillery. And are likely to result in fewer civilian casualties. Although to Hamas "fewer civilian casualties" is a bug, not a feature.

I think it is important to keep some moral clarity here. Israel should be offered no excuses if they are intentionally targeting civilians or even if they are too uncaring about unintentionally targeting civilians. But Hamas started this war. Hamas started this war with a series of vile atrocities that shocked even some of their allies. And Hamas is still intentionally targeting Israeli civilians every day with their rocket attacks.

So there isn't any moral equivalence here at all.

[PAL]

These are the what ifs I am referring to in David's post.

" But if Hamas has colocated military assets like rocket launchers at schools and hospitals and if those rocket launchers are shooting at targets in Israel the IDF has every right to take them out. Where you get into the weeds is whether there were other ways to take those targets out that would have caused fewer civilian casualties."
Yes, probably not if's, but that is how he posed it.

Please give the links about the babies being burned alive in ovens.

From reading history, both sides have a brutal past. In time you will see that Netanyahu and company are committing genocide. Hamas does need to be taken out. Why did Israel tell the Palestinians to go south, and then they dropped bombs on them? All are not Hamas and now there are 18,000 dead and many children. Innocent children. It is true children died on the Israelie side, but not 7,000.

And what about the hostages? Families are not happy with Neti and Biden as well.

[dorankj]

No, really a lot of truths. Hamas broke pelvis’ of women they raped, babies were burned alive in ovens, there really is no justification that defends that.

[PAL]

A lot of "ifs" here. More Palestinians killed than in the Nakba of 1948.

[mister_coffee]

I suspect that the IDF desecrated graves looking for the graves and remains of hostages.

Note that it is 100 percent clear that Hamas has committed multiple war crimes during this battle. The argument that they are weaker and should be given a pass does not fly, because the logical conclusion of that argument is that one side is always free to commit war crimes.

I think every article about this war should start with a paragraph approximately saying:

This war started on October 7th when Hamas fighters attacked Israeli and foreign civilians, killing over 1200 of them, including men, women, and children. Some of whom were sexually assaulted before or after they were killed. Over 200 civilians were taken hostage. All of these acts were war crimes.

It remains to be seen if Israel has actually committed war crimes. Yes, Israel operations have caused a large number of civilian deaths, and from the outside it doesn't look like the IDF is trying that hard to minimize civilian casualties. But if Hamas has colocated military assets like rocket launchers at schools and hospitals and if those rocket launchers are shooting at targets in Israel the IDF has every right to take them out. Where you get into the weeds is whether there were other ways to take those targets out that would have caused fewer civilian casualties. That ends up being a judgement call.

[pasayten]

Several more months??? and "At least 18,787 people have been killed in Gaza and 50,897 wounded since the war began"

The Washington Post
Israel-Gaza war live updates: Fighting will last ‘more than several months,’ Israeli defense minister tells U.S.
Story by Andrew Jeong, Kelsey Ables •

Here’s what to know

President Biden told reporters Thursday that he wants Israel “to be focused on how to save civilian lives” and to “be more careful,” a reflection of his shifting stance toward Israel’s methods, which have been criticized by human rights organizations and several world leaders.

In north Gaza and Gaza City, Israel Defense Forces soldiers raided cemeteries, vandalized graves and stole dead bodies, a Thursday statement from the Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor said. Field researchers reported that bodies were scattered or disappeared, and that dozens of graves were “seriously damaged.” They also reported that more than 120 mass graves have been constructed recently across Gaza.

In Jenin, in the West Bank, Israeli forces killed at least 12 Palestinians and injured more than 30 during a three-day raid, the Palestinian Health Ministry said Thursday. Late Thursday, the IDF said it had completed what it described as “counterterrorism activity” in Jenin, killing “more than ten terrorists.”

The IDF said early Friday that it had recovered the body of hostage Elia Toledano, 28, during an operation in Gaza and returned the body to Israel. Toledano was abducted during the Oct. 7 Hamas attacks and had attended the Supernova desert rave, Israeli media reported.

At least 18,787 people have been killed in Gaza and 50,897 wounded since the war began, according to the Gaza Health Ministry. At least 1,200 people were killed in Israel in the Oct. 7 Hamas attack.

[pasayten]

Jeesh... This journalist sure doesn't like the U.S. or Israel...
No mention of Hamas, hostages, or their attacks though...

This war does suck... Way too many innocent citizens... women and children... are being killed... homes destroyed...
I have no idea for a resolution to the issues at hand...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/ ... 9e354&ei=3

Biden, Kirby and dead, ungrateful Palestinians
Opinion by Andrew Mitrovica
18h

More than two years after his death, the odious spirit of Donald Rumsfeld has been resurrected.

It is not surprising. Every US administration has its share of banal bureaucrats who, in exchange for an important job with an impressive title, are willing to forfeit their integrity and jettison the truth in the “service” of country.

And so, since early October, the world has seen and heard a lot from Rumsfeld’s hideous heir, National Security Council spokesperson, John Kirby.

Like Rumsfeld, the former career naval officer speaks in a high-pitched monotone befitting his dour, monochromatic character.

Like Rumsfeld, Kirby is obliged to spout state-sanctioned bromides in defence of the wholesale destruction of innocent civilians – casualties all of America’s familiar kill-first, think-later foreign policy.

Like Rumsfeld, Kirby is the darling of Beltway pundits who, as a rule, defer to authority and genuflect before power.

On cue, the Washington Post described Kirby earlier this week as a “star” whose skill and experience have translated into “a commanding presence” during press briefings where he keeps the White House’s “messaging” on Gaza “clear”.

Kirby, the Post wrote, is “direct, plain-spoken and unmistakably supportive of the administration’s pro-Israeli policies”.

But just as the establishment media’s cleansing of Rumsfeld’s wretched record could not save the late defence secretary from history’s harsh and lasting judgement, Kirby will be remembered – if this pedestrian apparatchik is remembered at all – for his obscene apologia of the obscenities Palestinians have had to endure at the culpable hands of America’s proxy, Israel.
I thought it impossible that Kirby could outdo his doddering boss, US President Joe Biden who, memorably, trafficked in fabrications about beheaded babies, and questioned the number of killed Palestinian children, women and men.

Silly me.

Looking ever so commanding in a crisp, black suit, with a white handkerchief jutting fashionably out of his breast pocket, Kirby insisted that Palestinians – among many myopic others – should, at the least, pause to acknowledge America’s generosity in the midst of a genocide.

“Look, we certainly share the concerns that so many others have … about the humanitarian situation in Gaza,” Kirby said last week from a rostrum at the White House flanked by the Stars and Stripes. “Tell me, name me, one more nation, any other nation, that is doing as much as the United States to alleviate the pain and suffering of the people of Gaza. You can’t. You just can’t.”

I should let that astonishing paragraph stand as Kirby’s sorry epitaph since it demonstrates how prepared the Biden administration and its smug surrogates are to disfigure reality to promote a revolting lie.

But Kirby’s deplorable admonition requires a reply. Decency demands it.

Much of Gaza and 18,600 Palestinians – the bulk of them children and women – have been erased and buried in mass graves with the help of America’s lethal largesse.

Thousands more have been maimed, traumatised or remain entombed beneath the pancake-like rubble – the shattered remnants of once-vibrant homes, businesses, schools, mosques and hospitals.

Bit by inevitable bit, the occupied West Bank is also being invaded and erased. Hundreds of Palestinians have been arrested or worse, summarily executed, for being Palestinian or expressing solidarity with their besieged brothers and sisters in Gaza.

Millions of Palestinians have had to make forced marches in a futile quest for refuge from Israel’s incessant attacks. Denied food, water and fuel, countless Palestinians are starving. Disease and sickness are spreading in makeshift, mud-soaked refugee camps where flimsy tents dot the apocalyptic landscape.

Young and old Palestinian men have been rounded up like cattle, blindfolded, stripped near-naked and ordered to kneel in streets or barren fields. The sinister aim: to humiliate and degrade.

All of it – every cruel, inhumane and ruthless ounce of it – is being perpetrated with the explicit approval and consent of Biden and complicit company.

Kirby’s revisionism cannot obscure the plain facts that the rest of us can see. Nor can it mask Biden’s cynical strategy to circumvent a largely prostrate Congress in order to continue to feed Israel with weapons and ammunition to kill and maim Palestinians wherever it wants to, for as long as it wants to, by whatever means it wants to.

The nauseating corollary of Kirby’s rebuke is that Palestinians have been, in effect, ungrateful in the face of America’s phantom efforts to “alleviate the pain and suffering of the people of Gaza”.

Rather than condemning America’s collusion with a genocidal campaign, Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank and beyond should instead be thankful for America’s benevolence.

America is a friend, not a foe.

This is, of course, the definition of double-speak that performative hacks like Kirby are trained and expected to peddle. War is peace. Harm is healing. Bombs are bouquets.

Still, Kirby, the human weathervane, will do as he is told.

I suspect that, soon enough, he will be instructed to change tack and parrot the new lines offered up by a rattled president.

Speaking recently at a political fundraiser, Biden complained that Israel’s retributive pursuit of Hamas may have gone too far by killing too many Palestinians, too quickly and, as a result, was draining “support” among the international community.

“They’re [Israel] starting to lose that support by the indiscriminate bombing that takes place,” Biden said.

Then, remarkably, Biden suggested that a mild form of regime change ought to be in the offing in Israel.

“This is the most conservative government in Israel’s history,” the president said. “He [Netanyahu] has to change this government. This government in Israel is making it very difficult.”

Biden’s calculated volte-face is motivated by parochial, not principled, considerations and interests.

Having incensed and alienated crucial domestic constituencies that he needs to remain commander-in-chief next November, Biden is now trying to distance himself from a reactionary Israeli cabinet that he has enabled rhetorically, diplomatically and militarily.

Kirby will spin like a Ferris wheel to square that hypocritical circle.

He will fail.

The grotesque damage that the US has done to Palestinians yesterday, today and tomorrow cannot be undone by malleable “messaging”.

That malicious legacy will be forever fixed in our memory.

The views expressed in this article are the author’s own and do not necessarily reflect Al Jazeera’s editorial stance.