Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters

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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters

Post by Fun CH »

mister_coffee wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:27 am

There are some other points of view. I got blocked in (along with a couple of other skiers) by a rig with a trailer in late December. There are clearly bad actors on both sides and putting all of the bad karma on one group or another is not likely to be constructive.

It is hard to be generous about other folks' points of view when you are cold and tired and basically stuck until the snowmobiler with the trailer comes back. And it isn't skiers caching gear and fuel at the trailhead and polluting Early Winters Creek.


well certainly parking issues can arise in every public parking lot or private commercial lot. If someone parks you in on public property, call the Sheriff, because it is illegal to park you in.

Point is, according to the owner and the organization who does the lot maintenance, ie the State of Washington, Methow Trails has "no preview" in controlling who parks in that public lot. Yet MT has placed bogus signs that creates conflict and in my case, has lead to me being harassed twice now by people who are being mislead by those bogus signs.

I dont use a trailer so the harassment doesn't even jive with the message on the bogus Methow Trails signs. But I am quite obviously a snowmobiler so those signs seem to be triggering some people's prejudice.

I do agree with you about the fuel spill problem, whether that occurs at Early Winters or the Silver Star Snowpark (which has been open around 6 weeks in its three years of operation).

Those folks however are parking on the HWY as close as they can to their stashed snowmobiles on the other side of the closed Road berm and are not using the State Lot. So a non sequitur in this discussion.
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters

Post by mister_coffee »

Fun CH wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:37 am I own a life time pass to the MT system and do not appreciate being on the receiving end of the conflict that MT creates.
There are some other points of view. I got blocked in (along with a couple of other skiers) by a rig with a trailer in late December. There are clearly bad actors on both sides and putting all of the bad karma on one group or another is not likely to be constructive.

It is hard to be generous about other folks' points of view when you are cold and tired and basically stuck until the snowmobiler with the trailer comes back. And it isn't skiers caching gear and fuel at the trailhead and polluting Early Winters Creek.
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters

Post by Fun CH »

On Sunday I parked my snowmobile loaded truck in the State owned parking lot at Early Winters. I was having a good morning packing up my sled for three days of sking and two nights of camping near Washington Pass.

Then it happened. I was approached by a 70'S something man just stepping out of his $80,000 car. His stated desire was that I go park out on the state highway "where I belong" and not in the public parking lot.

A long time friend waiting for me chimed in telling the man in the $80,000 car, "he knows the rules" . This was referring to the fact that I have discussed this matter with the WSDOT and know that the State owns that parking lot, plows it, and that Methow Trails has, according to the WSDOT, "no purview" over how parking is dictated in that public parking lot.

I politely informed the man in the $80,000 car that "I will park where I want to park". He pointed to the 5 exclusionary signs that Methow Trails has nailed on the older growth trees that ring that public parking lot that are worded;

"Methow trails" - "no trailers -no overnight parking".

I didn't have trailer and only I knew I was parking overnight but I was quite obviously a snowmobiler. I explained to the man in the $80,000 car that the signs were "bogus". I think he knew that those signs were fake. The MT sign prop obviously suited his agenda and so he restated his position that I needed to get out of a cross country skier exclusive parking lot, as if somehow restating a concoction gave it truth.

That's when I said "go away, and told him that his behavior placed a "damper on my morning".

He shoved his hand towards me and said "lets shake" as if shaking my hand would somehow resolve his rude provocative behavior.

"Just go away" I said and off he went back to his $80,000 car.

I blame Methow Trails for trying to claim rights to a public parking lot that they have "no purview" to claim. They are the ones, despite their good work in the Valley, who are choosing to create user group conflict by continuing to displays their "bogus" signs".

I own a life time pass to the MT system and do not appreciate being on the receiving end of the conflict that MT creates.



bo·gus
/ˈbōɡəs/
not genuine or true; fake.
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters

Post by Jingles »

Welcome to the new Methow Valley where Methow Trails thinks all trails and parking areas belong to them and their folks and everyone else is basically trespassing and not welcome.
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters

Post by Fun CH »

Just spoke with the FS and was told.

The FS property does not share a boundary with that State owned parking lot.So the FS won't get involved with the sign issue even though MT holds a special use permit to operate on other parts of the trail system that are on Federal land.

The outhouse at that State parking lot was placed as part of the funding for the Silverstar snow Park.

There is some sort of understanding between MT and Okanogan County who has an understanding with the State to plow that parking lot on land owned by the State. That understsnding was not detailed and remains vague.

Bottom line is this.

From WSDOT;

"Methow Trails does not pay us to plow or have any purview over any WSDOT right of way. People can park there is they wish, but not camp/loiter."
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters

Post by PAL »

Great update Chris. Sounds like someone was paying attention. And hopefully any fuel leaks can stop.
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters

Post by Fun CH »

The WSDOT was out early this morning with plow truck and loader. They widened the parking lot by around 20' on all sides.

They also widened the Hwy past the road closed sign so now people will be able to park on the shoulders. They did have to work around some parked car on the hwy where they couldn't move the snow.

Plenty of parking for all.

The piles of snow in the parking lot are now almost high enough to the point of blocking those contentious signs from public View.

May as well just take him down. :mrgreen:
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters

Post by Fun CH »

The best course of action about the cached snowmobiles and the mess they create is to contact the Forest Service.

I was told by the WSDOT that the FS controls the Hwy usage after the winter time closure point. Last year at the SS Snow park grand opening, the FS did have a sign that said something to the effect that leaving a snowmobile was limited to 7 days.

That rule would have cut into the Commercial use of cached snowmobiles.

That sign disappeared.

I have a call into the FS concerning those MT signs but haven't heard back.

My understanding is that right where the groomed trail starts is on FS land. That outhouse is a FS model.

If those signs were screwed into the trees on FS controlled public land without permission, then IMO FS law enforcement needs to be involved.
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters

Post by PAL »

What needs to happen is an awareness of fuel leaking and the area looking trashy around the snowmobiles. Chris can you let other, responsible mobilers know that there is a situation developing where they may be denied access if someone does try to do an injunction. I say stop the bad behavior before that happens. We absolutely don't want snowmobilers to be stopped from being there. The state or someone grooms the road don't they? But if some people are making a mess, they have to show that they will clean it up. Maybe that is impossible because I know people do not like being told what to do.
I have never really looked closely at what is stored there. I am just stuck back when, I guess. There were no problems.
I think it is the increase of people creating a bad scene.
And why couldn't skiers park at Early Winters? There is already the established trailhead at the present parking area but maybe that could be moved. It doesn't have to start there. It could start at Early Winters. In coming from the Freestone area, there is already a road crossing to pick up the trail. Sigh.
There, it could work, if people would think outside the box.
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters

Post by mister_coffee »

PAL wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 9:09 am I had heard about fuel leaks. Totally irresponsible. Again the few make it bad. I hope you gave that guy that blocked you the 2nd time what for. Unless he was alot bigger and meaner than you!
Probably keeping calm is best, but man, sometimes, but rarely, my temper flares.
It was obvious I was pretty unhappy. At that point I was hungry too which doesn't improve the mood.

I think that it is a matter of time before there is a lawsuit about the fuel caches. I suspect that whoever files the lawsuit will get an injunction prohibiting snowmobile access at the end of the road until the fuel issue is resolved.
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters

Post by Fun CH »

The FS rec person did informally ask a few our thoughts on Snowpark location. I was pushing for open public comment even back then. I suggested placing the Snow park just past the FS boundry sign at Early Winters where a large parking area would create a fire break in that heavily overgrown forested Zone.

The idea to use the Early Winters campground was suggested to the FS and obviously rejected. Thats still a good idea except for its proximity to the river makes it a better location for non snowmobile use. So a great parking area for xc skiers.

I don't like the cauched snowmobiles and supplies at the SS Snowpark or at EW when the Hwy to SS closes. Many of those snowmobiles are junk and are cached by people from out of town, some not even registered.

There has already been one major fuel spill and many minor fuel and oil spills. The gas cans are often left out on the ground unattended.

The Commercial guide service caches their snow machines at both locations.

Take a look in the summer at just where that SSSnow park was constructed. Its right on top of Silverstar creek where that creek joins with Early Winters creek, the main drainage.

The brown painted concrete barriers are now the perfect canvas for the graffiti artists which is starting to happen.

This conflict situation in the North Cascades all comes down to the Forest Service favoring commercial interests over environmental and public safety concerns.

Moving that mess all up to Silver star is the goal here as it best serves the needs of commercial interests.

Fortunately the WSDOT favors public safety over commercial interests and closes the road to Silver star when critical resources are needed on our main roadways.
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters

Post by PAL »

I had heard about fuel leaks. Totally irresponsible. Again the few make it bad. I hope you gave that guy that blocked you the 2nd time what for. Unless he was alot bigger and meaner than you!
Probably keeping calm is best, but man, sometimes, but rarely, my temper flares.
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters

Post by mister_coffee »

When I got blocked, the first time I waited and some people who were parked next to me and also partially blocked finally came back. It took us about 45 minutes (with some shoveling to make room) but we were able to maneuver around the bad boy and escape.

The other time I skied to the Mazama Junction to get out on my cell phone and started calling around. Never found anybody who would take responsibility so I bought some tea at the store and waited a while longer. Skied back just as the bonehead who blocked me in got there (this was probably 3-4 hours after I first got back to the trailhead).

As for caching, I've observed fuel, snow machines, and those big plastic wash tubs apparently full of stuff stashed along the road there. Again, I think there should be ZERO tolerance for leaving stuff at that trailhead overnight unless you are actually going out to camp. Which I doubt happens very often.

Sometimes fuel has leaked there, which creates a hazardous waste problem and could potentially pollute pristine Early Winters Creek. And it implies that many folks downstream are drinking fuel.
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters

Post by PAL »

Early Winters might be a good option. That campground isn't open in the winter is it? The ski trail does go right by it, I think. But at least a conflict would be solved.
It was people complaining, I would guess, about snowmobile trailers taking up space in the parking area. If no one complained, and they didn't seem to years ago, everyone was fine. But it's the overcrowding thing. That was a mean note Chris.
David, do you mean people that are leaving their machines lined up, as far as caching? Chris what do you think of the machines all lined up like that?
That trailhead area, again I go back to the "old days"- there was no one there most of the time. A few snowmobiles. Ah, it was wilder then.
I do like the sign, All are Welcome Here. That would be so nice.
I hate to say it, I do believe it is people that live out there now complaining without knowing the historical use. And perhaps new skiers, that frown on snowmobiles. They don't know the history.
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters

Post by mister_coffee »

What I don't get is that Early Winters Campground is right there . It certainly wouldn't be too difficult to plow that double wide with adequate clearance and the snowmachiners can then park in the campground loops off the highway.

Certainly it would be less of a mess and simpler and probably less costly than the existing situation.

I also think there should be zero tolerance for people who cache supplies or gear at the trailhead.
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters

Post by Fun CH »

The Forest Service apparently didn't want to have that conversation with the public and now look at the result.

My guess is that the State police will only ticket if they get a compliant. On busy weekends people park on the hwy all the way to the East of the State parking lot.

And I agree,I don't like the old 2 stoke smoker Snow machines pollution. They are banned in National parks like Yellowstone but the FS has a lower standard when it comes to our environment and public safety.

And as you say, David's encounters where he was blocked does show that there's some inconsiderate people out there. But with only two incidents in 35 years there's also a lot of considerate people out there.

It doesn't take a snowmobile trailer to block you in. A small car is enough and that has happened to me a few times in various parking venues.

In a previous thread I mentioned how a "we don't want your kind here" note was left on my windshield while parked at that State Parking lot.

Unfortunately signs like the ones MT put up encourage this type of entitlement behavior and stirs the conflict pot.

Imagine if the sign that Methow Trails put up said,

"All are welcome here". What message would that send?
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters

Post by PAL »

Ok, then if they are ticketing on the highway, then you have to park somewhere. I really do think they have a right to park in the parking lot. MT and FS, DOT, can say no camping, I would guess. But the no parking...this has to be clarified. If it is state land then, I think you can park there.
It's unfortunate this is happening. People can work this out. I don't like snowmobile fumes, but I am going skiing in the opposite direction, so a bit of fume is not gonna hurt me.
How can this be resolved? Who are the parties that should be talking about this? I agree, this us versus them has to stop.
Again, no one should be blocking people in. Those are a few jerks.
A conversation needs to happen, I think.
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters

Post by Fun CH »

PAL wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 4:30 pm Obviously things have changed out there. Again I only remember rigs out on the highway. Chris, you don't have a trailer and you said you slide your ramp back into your pickup. It doesn't say snowmobile rigs can't park there. Doesn't sound like you were doing anything wrong.
That's true that I wasn't doing anything wrong by parking there and neither are people who are parking there with trailers.

Many of those people are my friends, one of whom was ticketed for parking on the highway. Last time I checked with the WSDOT, the public has a right to park in that State owned parking lot.

Those signs are an insult.

But hey, maybe this conflict is just what MT wants and needs to support an agenda of commercial expansion into our formerly pristine Wilderness quality mountains. That seems to be the trend.

Trash the place and say "see it's not wilderness quality"

How about it James, care to have a public conversation about this issue?
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters

Post by Fun CH »

mister_coffee wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 3:51 pm Jack's Trailhead is a serious problem and has been for literally decades now.

So, as a skier, if I arrive early and park conscientiously, and arrive back at the trailhead an hour or two later and find myself blocked in by a Big Rig with a huge trailer.

Who do I even call? Obviously I'll have to ski some distance to get a cell signal and even with that it isn't clear what recourse, if any, I have.

Before you describe this as a hypothetical it has happened to me. Twice.

The snow machine situation is making that trailhead unusable for Nordic Skiers. And there is very limited parking at the Bush School. And Freestone doesn't like skiers using their lot apparently. And the Corral is always super crowded. A bummer all around.

I started skiing here almost 35 years ago now. And the experience in Mazama was always magical. Until now.
Remember when we could access public land and trail skiing from Casel Road?

The FS gave (traded) that road to the land owners to create their very own private gated community.

Once I leave the trailhead hustle and bustle and overtly obvious conflict, the magic is there.

Yesterday we had a magical snowmobile ride up past the ghost town Snow park and to Cutthroat for an incredible BC tour.

I could not understand why the snowmobile club supported a Snow park that does away with seven miles of snowmobiling through such a beautiful place. Was a political deal made to gain that support?
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters

Post by PAL »

Obviously things have changed out there. Again I only remember rigs out on the highway. Chris, you don't have a trailer and you said you slide your ramp back into your pickup. It doesn't say snowmobile rigs can't park there. Doesn't sound like you were doing anything wrong.
David, I guess there are jerks(I know there are!) everywhere. What did you do to get out?
Perhaps rigs could park in one section and cars in another? But space is limited there.
Our answer is to park elsewhere because like I said it is more crowded there with both types of skiers.
Sounds like a solution other than signage needs to be worked out. Guess we will stay tuned.
The Corral does have an overflow small lot behind the Community Center at Mazama. I've parked there and it is never crowded. Granted, one has to walk about a block to the trailhead.
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters

Post by Fun CH »

I have used that trailhead for parking and unloading my machine for decades. I don't use a trailer however and used to place the ramp inside my truck to keep it out of the way.

Often the Hwy is icy so for stable footing the parking lot makes a better platform to prevent falls and give traction for machines.

The FS could have solved this problem by properly locating the new snow park closer to a
developed areas, but choose instead to favor the wants of their corporate partners. They could have sought public comment instead issuing a categorical exclusion which basically says that the snow park at Silver Star is deemed not to be a significant impact. It obviously is.

No Pearl I haven't discussed this with James, nor has he contacted me to discuss this issue. Its clear MT seeks conflict with snowmobilers pitting one user group against another. I wrote this to the WSDOT:

"I have to wonder if methow Trails is purposely trying to create conflict with the snowmobile user group in order to move snowmobile parking up to Silverstar Snow park as a solution to a conflict that they have created."

MT supported that SilverStar sno-park abomination. The FS apparently asked for their input, but not the General Public.

And I won't be taking those signs down. They are on FS property

Depending upon what the WSDOT responce is, I will first ask the Forest Service to have the signs removed since the signs were screwed into public land trees.

If that doesn't work, further legal action may be required following a cease-and-desist request.
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters

Post by mister_coffee »

Jack's Trailhead is a serious problem and has been for literally decades now.

So, as a skier, if I arrive early and park conscientiously, and arrive back at the trailhead an hour or two later and find myself blocked in by a Big Rig with a huge trailer.

Who do I even call? Obviously I'll have to ski some distance to get a cell signal and even with that it isn't clear what recourse, if any, I have.

Before you describe this as a hypothetical it has happened to me. Twice.

The snow machine situation is making that trailhead unusable for Nordic Skiers. And there is very limited parking at the Bush School. And Freestone doesn't like skiers using their lot apparently. And the Corral is always super crowded. A bummer all around.

I started skiing here almost 35 years ago now. And the experience in Mazama was always magical. Until now.
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters

Post by PAL »

Decades. You are right Chris, for many years snowmobilers did park out along side the highway. But then you cite the complaint and the highway patrol wanting to tow the vehicle. There was no problem with the snowmobilers parking out there. Didn't they enlarge that parking lot, where the trailhead is? I know in the early days, I never saw mobilers park in there as it was tight.
In your one post you said something about taking those signs down. I thought the same thing, but I don't know if you should now that you have admitted it openly. Honestly, I don't like a bunch of signs, especially screwed to trees. Too many rules and we have to have too many signs. I digress. I don't have a problem with the mobilers parking there, but there never were that many. I was always impressed that they left the machines all in a line up there and they trusted no one would mess with them.
Now, there are more and more people around using that trailhead. Jacks and the Freestone don't want people parking over there. Secret. We park at Basecamp.
Have you talked to James? You can email him or talk directly to him. I wouldn't think MT would have exclusive "rights".
Who put in the new toilet? Was it MT working with FS? Hey, do you remember when there used to be the shabbiest, grossest sani - can ever out there? Full of garbage one time and I complained to DOT about it.
I can share with the mobilers, especially out there. Now if we could just do something about them in Elbow Coulee.
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters

Post by Fun CH »

MT at it again placing signs at a public parking with the intent of excluding public use.

I sent the following email to the WSDOT to find out if there has been a change use priority that excludes snowmobilers.

"Hello,

Could you tell me if there has been any change in status of the use of the State parking lot at Early Winters referenced in our email.

I ask because Methow Trails has again claimed control of this public parking area and placed 5 or so signs screwed to local trees that say "no trailers allowed".

This of course restricts public access to that parking lot by snowmobile users.

I have to wonder if methow Trails is purposely trying to create conflict with the snowmobile user group in order to move snowmobile parking up to Silverstar Snow park as a solution to a conflict that they have created.

It's clear that the snow Park at Silverstar was not placed in the correct location by the Forest Service. This location was supported by both Methow Trails and the Commercial guide service and unfortunately a decision made that was not open to public comment.

Closing the Hwy also gives us more snowmobile recreational opportunities.

Placing a city like parking area at Silverstar does make it easier for the local Guide Service to make money up there as the that SS parking area moves commercially permitted skiing areas closer, however many consider it to be an abomination. This is supposed to be a Scenic Highway, not one that resembles a Disneyland type atmosphere parking area.

This parking lot at Silverstar intrudes on critical winter time Wildlife corridors. The Forest Service should have known better.

They also placed the SS Snow park west of an active Avalanche path that has already slid down to the highway and now because of Wild fire, that path is at increased risk for Avalanche hazard.

I support the WSDOT's decision to close Hwy 20 up to Silverstar when critical resources are needed elsewhere in order to keep Valley roadways safe for school buses and the general public.

Thank you for keeping our roads safe to travel."
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Re: Methow Trails places signs at Early Winters

Post by Fun CH »

Because of the confusion created by those signs, folks with trailers and snowmobiles on their trucks have been parking along HWY 20 just after the road closed sign.

The result has been a complaint filed with law enforcement resulting in a friend having their truck marked as an abandoned vehicle by the police.

If that vehicle had not been removed within 24 hours it would have been towed. The closure point starts after the snow berm so that section of Highway behind the closed sign is still considered to be active Highway and all rules apply.

I said before that I can't blame the residents who live along Castle Road which intersects Highway 20 where we park, for not wanting the congestion near their access even though we've been parking there for decades.

I sought further clarification from the WSDOT concerning Methow Trails trying to assert their authority over that parking lot and the rumor that they pay for the plowing to the State.

Here is the reply.

"Well, the rumor is just a rumor. Methow Trails does not pay us to plow or have any purview over any WSDOT right of way. People can park there is they wish, but not camp/loiter."

So contrary to the Methow Trails sign, trucks with trailers are allowed to park in the State owned parking lot.

If the State chooses to place signs concerning "no camping" or "no loitering" (I agree) that's their prerogative to do so.

I will be taking those unauthorized signs down and delivering them to the Methow Trails office.

Good to have the facts and thanks to the WSDOT for providing a place to park that doesn't require a fee.
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