new data

[Rideback]

Yes, I can't help but think that is the heart of the matter. Focusing on allowing the imperfect to contract and suffer is a milestone in strawman arguments because it's a blatant attempt to distract and even ignore history's lessons. Not to break away from the topic but because the last 2 years' worth of pandemic has taught us that there is an uncompromising percentage of people who won't budge off of beliefs that stonewall protecting even their own community or family by simply taking vaccines, we now have context of how those same people will refuse any kind of cooperation when it comes to climate change mitigation and adaptation.

Yes disinformation is rampant but it's still hard for me to grasp the willingness of that core to take that disinformation at face value over what scientific research papers will disprove in a matter of minutes.

[Rideback]

The transition from pandemic to endemic translates into a when not if scenario for everyone. Then the question becomes how severe will your case become? Previous infections are, for now, showing that rather than protect from reinfection they are instead more likely for those previously infected.

https://www.nbcnews.com/science/science ... c-rcna9559

[Fun CH]

[

The ‘hosts’ include fully vaccinated, that’s the point. If the shot only provides reduction of severity to the individual and the great majority of younger and healthier have no real issues and develop superior natural immunity how can you mandate and fire? The polio vaccine works, hence the irradication of it and no ‘boosters’ needed. If these new shots are ever proven to stop this AND shows robust long term safety I may very well support it like I do TB, Polio etc. it’s just not there yet. The flu shot has always been a personal choice precisely because it doesn’t eliminate the flu only lessen potential severity for vulnerable populations.

you still haven't posted your source for that last 'fully compliant' countries vs Covid transmission rates post that you made. I guess we can assume you are only posting opinion because you are not stating facts.

Like this fact which contradicts what you just posted: the polio vaccine was up to 4 doses so yea, there were boosters that increased vaccine efficacy.

Early data suggests that Covid vaccinated people are less likely to become a host than those who are unvaccinated.






https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... eople.html



"The risk for SARS-CoV-2 infection in fully vaccinated people cannot be completely eliminated as long as there is continued community transmission of the virus. Early data suggest infections in fully vaccinated persons are more commonly observed with the Delta variant than with other SARS-CoV-2 variants. However, data show fully vaccinated persons are less likely than unvaccinated persons to acquire SARS-CoV-2, and infections with the Delta variant in fully vaccinated persons are associated with less severe clinical outcomes. Infections with the Delta variant in vaccinated persons potentially have reduced transmissibility than infections in unvaccinated persons, although additional studies are needed."

[Rideback]

A revisit of the history of polio vaccines with the reminder that at any given time polio can be reintroduced by a visitor/carrier.

https://www.cdc.gov/polio/what-is-polio/polio-us.html

Again, people are the carriers and as long as they do not vaccinate, as long as they don't isolate, as long as they 'feel well enough' to go to work or socialize they impact other peoples' health.

[dorankj]

The ‘hosts’ include fully vaccinated, that’s the point. If the shot only provides reduction of severity to the individual and the great majority of younger and healthier have no real issues and develop superior natural immunity how can you mandate and fire? The polio vaccine works, hence the irradication of it and no ‘boosters’ needed. If these new shots are ever proven to stop this AND shows robust long term safety I may very well support it like I do TB, Polio etc. it’s just not there yet. The flu shot has always been a personal choice precisely because it doesn’t eliminate the flu only lessen potential severity for vulnerable populations.

[Fun CH]

This is important to discuss for both diseases, if COVID has a 99.xx survivability normally (for ages up to about 60 and no co-morbitities) can so much success be placed on a ‘vaccine’ with so much ‘breakthrough’?

again, breakthrough cases continue to occur because there is a lot of Covid hosts still around. I believe if each person who is Covid contagious infects less than one person, the disease dies out.


polio had a less than 1% chance of paralysis, so lets just let people decide on their own to get the vaccine if they want to attend public school?

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/poliomyelitis/facts

"The majority of poliovirus infections are asymptomatic; up to 70% of infected individuals experience no symptoms and about 25% experience mild symptoms.

Paralytic poliomyelitis occurs in less than 1% of all infections"

[mister_coffee]

... if COVID has a 99.xx survivability normally ...

I think it is a mistake to lean on that number very hard.

Some states, notably Mississippi, New Jersey, and Arizona, have had per-capita covid deaths well north of 300 per 100,000. That is about 0.30% of the population. So your odds of surviving COVID in those states is about 99.7 percent whether you have been infected or not. Note that we can be pretty sure that not everyone has been infected yet. That argues to me, at a first estimate, that the "normal survivability rate" of COVID is probably a heck of a lot lower than that, probably under 99 percent.

Rational people go a long way out of their way to avoid a 1 percent risk of death.

Note also that there is pretty compelling evidence that we are undercounting COVID deaths, and more so in some places with already very high COVID fatality rates:

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/ ... Q0&irgwc=1

Also note that this disease doesn't have to kill you to ruin your life. A lot of people are suffering from long-term health complications caused by this disease, and many of them will likely be unable to support themselves.

[dorankj]

This is important to discuss for both diseases, if COVID has a 99.xx survivability normally (for ages up to about 60 and no co-morbitities) can so much success be placed on a ‘vaccine’ with so much ‘breakthrough’? Similarly, is it truly a mandate that made polio vaccine work so well? Most people don’t wish to die or have severe disability, I think proven efficacy (including time) and maintaining freedom (within reason, I.e. reasonable consequences for choices using the least force necessary) will lead the most people to make good choices for themselves (and thereby the community).

[Fun CH]

Several countries boast perfect or near perfect vaccination rates and I’m fairly certain have excellent masking compliance and they have large case runs and even hospitalization and death. I

what is your source, and what vaccine are they using? Lots of different covid vaccinnes out there in the world.


asking for a friend.

Quote:

"I do not agree that mandates force efficacy, I believe effective treatments don’t need government force to make work and get people to take."

Except with polio, measles and a few other of those pesky viruses the vaccine Mandate seem to work in our country.

[dorankj]

Several countries boast perfect or near perfect vaccination rates and I’m fairly certain have excellent masking compliance and they have large case runs and even hospitalization and death. I agree that for those likely to have severe reactions or death from COVID, protection from the vaccine is beneficial and any side effects are worth the risk (subject to individual choice)

I believe Omicron is dispelling this ‘good of the community’ trope (it seems particularly able to evade ‘fully vaccinated’ as did a lot of Delta) and that is the outdated ideas. Some of us have been arguing to protect the vulnerable, treat those who need it (therapeutics and immune health) and get back to some normalcy. We cannot eradicate a respiratory virus with animal vectors, this has a lot of similarities to HIV (Fauxci also headed that response up) and we never found a‘vaccine’ for it, we manage those who get it and reasonably reduce possible transmission.

I will try to find again the timelines for development, testing and even eventual mandating of our various immunizations and vaccines, my point is that the timeline and lack of thorough long-term testing is far shorter here and it’s reasonable to see better long term info before firing people and showing cards to buy food.

I do not agree that mandates force efficacy, I believe effective treatments don’t need government force to make work and get people to take.

[Fun CH]

I think you’re operating on outdated ideas that this can be eradicated, even ‘fully compliant’ countries haven’t been able stop this.

please post your source for this information. I'd be interested in seeing the data on which countries are 'fully compliant' and what the infection and hospitalization rates are.

You say that you are pro vaccine for those that need it. If so, why do you post anti vaccine rhetoric such as that whole polio vaccine misinformation in comparison to the Covid vaccine?

Is it now clear to you that the reason the polio vaccine continues to work in this country is because it is a mandated vaccine? The virus that causes polio in vulnerable children hasn't gone away, it just doesn't have hosts to infect in our country. That's not the case in other areas of the world that don't have such a robust immunization program against polio.

In this country we make an effort to try to protect the vulnerable, even if it means personal sacrifice. Evidence of that American principal is when Trump shut down the country and our economy tanked.

My hope is that the Omicron variant brings a natural end to this pandemic, because it seems not everyone is willing to help carry the water for the good of community.

But perhaps I'm operating on outdated ideas and principles.

Perhaps it is every man for themselves.

[dorankj]

That’s the nature of virus’, they become more virulent and less lethal. Can we eradicate colds? Can we eliminate the flu with shots? Are we going to live forever masked, locked down and jabbed every 6 mos.?

[Rideback]

One of the problems with 'natural immunity' is that each variant is proving its ability to reinfect. With Omicron it's also proving that those who have had Covid before are more easily reinfected. That's not the case with vaccinations w/boosters. Every time there is a new case this is fuel to the virus to continue its journey, to mutate and continue its cycle. So even though people make take heart that they have had Covid before and survived, they may not be as lucky a 2nd or 3rd time round and likewise the people they come into contact with and infect will suffer the consequences. You can't stop a virus until you stop the carriers.

There's a whole lot of hopeful people out there saying that Omicron is not displaying as severe as Delta. That hasn't been proven yet. It's likely, yes, but hasn't been proven. What we do know is that unlike Delta we have a large portion of the Country that are vaccinated which protects against more severe symptoms. But for the people who contract Omicron who are unvaccinated there are still severe symptoms and that's leading us quickly down a path of a collapsed health care system.

[dorankj]

Do you even consider natural immunity? If this is highly transmissible (whether masked or vaxed) but not much lethality (I read it’s nearly finished in Africa) wouldn’t it almost be a good thing to get it and have antibodies? I think you’re operating on outdated ideas that this can be eradicated, even ‘fully compliant’ countries haven’t been able stop this. And most normal people aren’t wearing masks forever and getting jabbed every 6 mos.!

[PAL]

You said it David. With the influx of visitors, know when to shop. Afternoons are crazy.

[mister_coffee]

Basically at this point all you can do is get fully vaccinated and boosted, wear a mask when indoors among strangers, and stay the heck away from people.

[PAL]

Here's my view. Omicron is now the leader, 70%, according to a Seattle Times article. And here is what is happening here in our little Valley and OK county. Numbers are down. But...there is an influx this week of people from all over the state and beyond, to visit the Valley. The grocery stores, shops are crowded with it mainly being in the afternoons. Now I know why I shop in the mornings usually. Most of the visitors are even wearing masks while outside on the boardwalk in Winthrop. And always in the stores, that I saw.
However, people may not be distancing as much. It will take about 2-3 weeks to see if cases go up here. And Omicron may not be responsible for putting as many people in the hospital. Those in the hospital may well have the Delta variant, be unvaxxed and have underlying health problems. Supposedly Omicron is more contagious but with less severe symptoms.
If Omicron is dominant and is less severe, yes, what does that mean for the pandemic. Will it slow it and weaken it?
Or there are variants in Omicron. It seeks live hosts. So a worse variant may not happen.
What could happen is a whole new, more evil, bug could come around. And this has been true ever since life on earth.
But, back to Covid. If we get vaccinated, it has been shown we are less likely to end up in the hospital and have a less severe case. For me, the biggest thing, is not to get sick, as I really don't want to miss out on skiing. It's in my blood. I might be exhausted from skiing but I cannot be a couch potato.