The South Creek Trail has been blocked

User avatar
mister_coffee
Posts: 1405
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:35 pm
Location: Winthrop, WA
Contact:

Re: The South Creek Trail has been blocked

Post by mister_coffee »

Fun CH wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:11 am ...
"The Supreme Court has made exceptions to the warrant rule through several cases.
...
If you read up on the Border Patrol controversy they have claimed the unilateral right to enter any private property with 25 miles of an international border and conduct a search of that property, without a warrant. The only exception is that they need a warrant to search a private residence. So in theory if you have an office in San Francisco or Port Angeles or Mazama the Border Patrol can come in any time and search you. The courts haven't sorted this one out yet so good luck to you if armed border patrol agents want to search your detached garage.
Fun CH wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:11 am David would you've also supported the taking of Native American land back when that was happening?
No, of course not.

And there are a lot more recent injustices in the uncompensated taking of private property, consider:

(1) The taking of homes and farms owned by the Issei and Nisei at the start of WWII.
(2) The taking of land and water rights in the Owens Valley to provide water for Los Angeles.
(3) The forcible displacement of many people of many ethnicities when hydroelectric dams were constructed here on a large scale. For two very different cases consider the Wanapum Indians and the nice people who lived in Kettle Falls. In general your odds of getting a fair price for your property went up if you were (a) white, (b) wealthy, and (c) politically well-connected.

For a condemnation and eminent domain process to work, I would (at a bare minimum) expect:

(1) That accountable elected officials authorize it and set up a framework for it. In this case I would expect Congress to appropriate money for private land purchases and define cases where it is appropriate. So it would be reasonable to purchase an inholding (or condemn an inholding) at fair market price if it met certain transparent criteria set by elected officials.
(2) The landowner should get a fair and transparent hearing in court where the condemnation is approved and a fair market value is determined. Reasonable legal costs for the court process should be borne by the condemning agency.

I think the fair and reasonable solution is that the landowner be bought out at a fair market price.
:arrow: David Bonn :idea:
PAL
Posts: 1307
Joined: Tue May 25, 2021 1:25 pm
Contact:

Re: The South Creek Trail has been blocked

Post by PAL »

The whole property would not be taken. That trail has been there for years. Yes, it is his right to close off his property. It's just not very nice.
And here is what I can't stand about your post and others on other BB's, is that you bring up what a person would have supported in the past about Native Lands. You are trying to make a point. Yes, we know it was wrong to do that to the Natives but that is not what is being discussed. Dredging up wrongs in the past is only to make a point and it is a tiresome point. Ok?
I do not support that recreational district proposal, by the way and not many people do.
We can write the owner a letter asking for permission, is one way to approach this.
Pearl Cherrington
Fun CH
Posts: 1440
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:22 pm
Contact:

Re: The South Creek Trail has been blocked

Post by Fun CH »

mister_coffee wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 6:30 am This isn't a simple issue of property rights. Property rights are finite. As some examples:

Could you store radioactive waste on your property?

Could you grow opium on your property?

Can the Border Patrol enter your property without a warrant? (Consider https://www.acluaz.org/sites/default/fi ... rights.pdf)

yes to all those. The first two would require permits, the last one, if a crime is progress you bet that law enforcement can enter your property without a warrant..

"The Supreme Court has made exceptions to the warrant rule through several cases. The exceptions that allow police to enter your person or property without a warrant are as follows:

Search incident to lawful arrest - the police enter a home to make an arrest. They can search the immediate area of the arrest.
Plain Sight - Police are lawfully in a place where they can see evidence in plain sight. They can seize the evidence and it may give them probable cause to search further.
Consent - You allow the police to search your home.
Dangerous weapon - The police have reason to believe that you have a dangerous weapon which they fear may be used against them.
Automobile - if the evidence can be moved and never recovered while the police seek a warrant the police can search.
Exigent Circumstances or Hot Pursuit - If someone in the home is in danger or the police follow a person into a home while pursuing them for committing a felony."

https://intermountainlegal.net/criminal ... t-warrant/

Once again, yes this is definitely a property rights issue. The owner has the right to close his property to the public.

What surprises me most is that people with a liberal mindset would even consider taking this property using eminent domain as a justification. (Or maybe its not surprising given the liberal support for the formation of a methow recreational District which included the ability to take private property for public use)

David would you've also supported the taking of Native American land back when that was happening?
What's so funny 'bout peace love and understanding--Nick Lowe
Can't talk to a man who don't want to understand--Carol King
PAL
Posts: 1307
Joined: Tue May 25, 2021 1:25 pm
Contact:

Re: The South Creek Trail has been blocked

Post by PAL »

Agree with you David.
Pearl Cherrington
User avatar
mister_coffee
Posts: 1405
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:35 pm
Location: Winthrop, WA
Contact:

Re: The South Creek Trail has been blocked

Post by mister_coffee »

This isn't a simple issue of property rights. Property rights are finite. As some examples:

Could you store radioactive waste on your property?

Could you grow opium on your property?

Can the Border Patrol enter your property without a warrant? (Consider https://www.acluaz.org/sites/default/fi ... rights.pdf)

Since the trail is being closed not because of specific issues with trail users, but as an ineffective negotiating tactic to get the Forest Service to grant access for motorized equipment on a trail in designated Wilderness. I say "ineffective" because the Forest Service can't legally just grant that access, there is a process that needs to happen with things like an environmental assessment, public comment, an environmental impact statement, and an implementation plan. All of that would need to happen at the expense of the property owner, not the taxpayers. Any improvements to the trail required by the process would also be at the expense of the property owners. A rock-bottom estimate for the costs of all that would be around $250,000, which I am extremely doubtful the property owners would be willing or able to pay.

In some ways I think the property owners in this case have outsmarted themselves. Under eminent domain they are entitled to compensation at the fair market value of their property. Unfortunately for them if they are not developing the mineral rights and are intent on developing the property as a "resort" the fair market value is likely to be a lot closer to the assessed value of the property than to the value with hypothetical mineral values taken into account.
:arrow: David Bonn :idea:
Fun CH
Posts: 1440
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:22 pm
Contact:

Re: The South Creek Trail has been blocked

Post by Fun CH »

Just because permission has been granted to use that trail all these years does not mean that trail users have any rights to take that private land for their own use.

Might help to read this case.
SLIP OPINION - Wa. Courts

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 2695888357


Quote:"I don't think using the existing trail is going to impoverish people and destroy a culture. "

It is that act of taking or trying to take away away private property and other rights (ie taking private land or court upheld constitutional rights, ie voting, equal rights, right to peacefully Assemble Etc) that does that.
What's so funny 'bout peace love and understanding--Nick Lowe
Can't talk to a man who don't want to understand--Carol King
PAL
Posts: 1307
Joined: Tue May 25, 2021 1:25 pm
Contact:

Re: The South Creek Trail has been blocked

Post by PAL »

OK, but what if it is not adverse possession or eminent domain, which I don't like either. What if it's because it has been used for so long, before most people knew it was private property? Is there not a law, rule, or something that, after so much use, would imply that the trail can be used?
I have been told by a former official, that it is ok to cross the property. But that is a former official.
A friend went up there Fri. and they found a rope across the trail, a game cam in a tree and some signage. No gate.
But until the property can be crossed, by using a bushwhack trail over and over, will become a trail.
I don't think using the existing trail is going to impoverish people and destroy a culture. What it does destroy is access to our public lands.
I am just pointing this out, not attacking here.
If the owner is planning a PD, then he must get a permit from the Planning Dept. But we don't know. We may know, as I wrote to the Planning Dept.last week. It will be weeks before I hear anything, if ever, they are so swamped.
Pearl Cherrington
Fun CH
Posts: 1440
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:22 pm
Contact:

Re: The South Creek Trail has been blocked

Post by Fun CH »

PAL wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:20 pm Oh, but what an adventure it would be. Nope, won't find me doin' it until the streams go down. Who knows, by August, things may be settled with letting us pass through the property. I say August for no particular reason, except some wheels may be set in motion.
exactly, you have to pick your seasons and go when conditions are suitable for your "style". Everyone's style can be different with the common denominator being the fun Factor.

After a while, that bushwhack trail will be a regular trail from continued use.

And most importantly, conflict will be avoided and not even need be considered a factor here.

Ray, I think of adverse possession, taking property by eminent domain and using principles of manifest destiny to be abhorrent tools and justifications to take what is not ours, destroy culture and impoverish people.

Hint, it's what the Western Europeans did to the native inhabitants of this land.


That is primarily why I mentioned to Alf that asserting your property rights from those whose desire is to take away those property rights , is not a rural gentrification issue.
What's so funny 'bout peace love and understanding--Nick Lowe
Can't talk to a man who don't want to understand--Carol King
PAL
Posts: 1307
Joined: Tue May 25, 2021 1:25 pm
Contact:

Re: The South Creek Trail has been blocked

Post by PAL »

Oh, but what an adventure it would be. Nope, won't find me doin' it until the streams go down. Who knows, by August, things may be settled with letting us pass through the property. I say August for no particular reason, except some wheels may be set in motion.
Pearl Cherrington
User avatar
mister_coffee
Posts: 1405
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:35 pm
Location: Winthrop, WA
Contact:

Re: The South Creek Trail has been blocked

Post by mister_coffee »

I think the idea of bushwhacking off of the Louis Lake trail is unlikely to have a great result.

Since South Creek, even before Louis Creek joins it, is a substantial stream I suspect you will go quite a ways upstream before you find a safe place to cross. At the lowest I think you might find a place to cross at about the same point as the tributary crosses the existing trail (there are a couple of poor campsites at that spot). That is a 2-3 rough miles upstream from where you'd leave the Louis Lake trail. And there is no guarantee that you wouldn't need to go higher to find a decent ford.
:arrow: David Bonn :idea:
User avatar
pasayten
Posts: 2452
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:03 pm
Contact:

Re: The South Creek Trail has been blocked

Post by pasayten »

Coming over from the top would be thru South Pass... Fron the areas of Dee Dee Lake and McAllister Pass... McAllister Pass is a very popular area.
pasayten
Ray Peterson
PAL
Posts: 1307
Joined: Tue May 25, 2021 1:25 pm
Contact:

Re: The South Creek Trail has been blocked

Post by PAL »

Where do you come over, if coming from the top? And then down. I haven't asked the FS and that is my next question to them.
People sure aren't going to turn around after coming all that way.
Pearl Cherrington
User avatar
pasayten
Posts: 2452
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:03 pm
Contact:

Re: The South Creek Trail has been blocked

Post by pasayten »

If coming from the top, I would just go aorund the gate... BTW, he probably illegally used an ATV to get the gate there in the first place.
pasayten
Ray Peterson
PAL
Posts: 1307
Joined: Tue May 25, 2021 1:25 pm
Contact:

Re: The South Creek Trail has been blocked

Post by PAL »

Thanks Chris for bringing this up. What about adverse possession? Bushwacking around would be the least costly and time consuming, instead of trying to see how much the owner is in his legal rights or hikers theirs. Which means a lawsuit. It has been suggested that someone try to talk to the owner. Ask permission of him. If a bushwhack around was created, we would have to know where that property line in on the traverse from Louise Lake. On the other hand, I wonder if there are any hikers this summer that will climb the gate. And risk what? Jail? Probably not. Confrontation? Just keep walking.
The signs and cameras may just be an intimidation tactic. Although the FS sign asks people to respect the property.
Have written Kristen Bail supervisor of this area of the Methow. She is based out of Wenatchee. Will see if I get a reply.
Pearl Cherrington
Fun CH
Posts: 1440
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:22 pm
Contact:

Re: The South Creek Trail has been blocked

Post by Fun CH »

pasayten wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 12:04 pm From a user...

The 2015 case just created a presumption of permissive use. It shifts the burden of proof to the hiker claiming the right of passage. The presumption can be rebutted by offering evidence that the right of passage was not permissive.

The Forest Service, a government agency, does not have standing to claim this right, the hikers do.

Any public hiker using the trail under claim of right for longer than the statutory period bars a trespass claim.

The public hikers need to organize and file a claim of prescriptive easement.

It is ultimately a case by case decision up to the presiding judge.

From what I know the landowner will be required to remove the gate.

He who sleeps on his rights loses them. Laches.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laches_(e ... y%20laches.
any idea who, Ferderal or State, has jurisdiction over this matter if it went to court for someone seeking a prescriptive easement?

I've read that Washington state is trending towards the individual landowners rights in these matters.

Also in Washington State continual use has to be proven and no one uses that Trail continuously throughout the year.

"In Washington, a person claiming a prescriptive easement must prove that he or she (and/or a predecessor in interest) used another person's land for 10 years, and the use was (1) hostile; (2) open and notorious; (3) continuous or uninterrupted; (4) over a uniform route; and (5) exclusive.
https://www.gillettlawfirm.com › pre...
Prescriptive Easement Attorney in Seattle, Washington | Gillett Law .."

Best idea I've heard, via email, is to start a "bushwhack" bypass trail off the first Switchback off the Lewis Lake Trail.
What's so funny 'bout peace love and understanding--Nick Lowe
Can't talk to a man who don't want to understand--Carol King
User avatar
pasayten
Posts: 2452
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:03 pm
Contact:

Re: The South Creek Trail has been blocked

Post by pasayten »

Here is the thread on the NW Hiker site...

http://www.nwhikers.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8033809
pasayten
Ray Peterson
User avatar
pasayten
Posts: 2452
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:03 pm
Contact:

Re: The South Creek Trail has been blocked

Post by pasayten »

We can use this BB and things will not get deleted... Plus you can post pictures and hot links to other sources.
pasayten
Ray Peterson
PAL
Posts: 1307
Joined: Tue May 25, 2021 1:25 pm
Contact:

Re: The South Creek Trail has been blocked

Post by PAL »

Hello,
New to this Board, but not new to a few of you.
Ray, it looks like the other BB yanked the South Cr. post and I am thinking it was that I asked if anyone had contacted the owner. If it was me, I feel bad about it. Of course, it can always be posted again. Thanks for all the postings that did get on. Over 5000 views, must have been a record.
Pearl
Pearl Cherrington
User avatar
pasayten
Posts: 2452
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:03 pm
Contact:

Re: The South Creek Trail has been blocked

Post by pasayten »

From a user...

The 2015 case just created a presumption of permissive use. It shifts the burden of proof to the hiker claiming the right of passage. The presumption can be rebutted by offering evidence that the right of passage was not permissive.

The Forest Service, a government agency, does not have standing to claim this right, the hikers do.

Any public hiker using the trail under claim of right for longer than the statutory period bars a trespass claim.

The public hikers need to organize and file a claim of prescriptive easement.

It is ultimately a case by case decision up to the presiding judge.

From what I know the landowner will be required to remove the gate.

He who sleeps on his rights loses them. Laches.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laches_(e ... y%20laches.
pasayten
Ray Peterson
User avatar
pasayten
Posts: 2452
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:03 pm
Contact:

Re: The South Creek Trail has been blocked

Post by pasayten »

https://opencorporates.com/companies/us_wa/604710917

SOUTH CREEK RESORT LLC
Company Number
604710917
Status
Active
Incorporation Date
1 February 2021 (4 months ago)
Company Type
WA LIMITED LIABILITY COMPANY
Jurisdiction
Washington (US)
Registered Address
239 ENGLAR RD # A12
WINTHROP
98862-9154
WA
UNITED STATES
Agent Name
JACK CRAMER
Agent Address
239 ENGLAR RD # A12, WINTHROP, WA, 98862-9154, UNITED STATES
Directors / Officers
JACK CRAMER, agent
JACK CRAMER, executor
JACK CRAMER, governor
Registry Page
https://www.sos.wa.gov/corps/business...
RSS feed icon
Recent filings for SOUTH CREEK RESORT LLC
1 Feb 2021
CERTIFICATE OF FORMATION
1 Feb 2021
INITIAL REPORT
Source Washington Secretary of State - Corporations Division, https://ccfs.sos.wa.gov/, 2 May 2021 (Public Domain)
pasayten
Ray Peterson
Fun CH
Posts: 1440
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:22 pm
Contact:

Re: The South Creek Trail has been blocked

Post by Fun CH »

Sounds to me like the landowner is enforcing property rights, and using that issue to gain more rights (right of way).It is their right to attempt that. So yea, its a property right issue.

No need for the public to be upset. Just support the construction of a trail bypass spur and move on.
What's so funny 'bout peace love and understanding--Nick Lowe
Can't talk to a man who don't want to understand--Carol King
User avatar
mister_coffee
Posts: 1405
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:35 pm
Location: Winthrop, WA
Contact:

Re: The South Creek Trail has been blocked

Post by mister_coffee »

I don't think this whole dispute has a single thing to do with private property rights.

The property owner is question is closing off trail access as a negotiating tactic to get the USFS to allow him to move heavy equipment through designated wilderness to his property (this would involve building a road in designated wilderness). The property owner hopes that the ensuing public outcry about the trail closure will get the USFS to "compromise".

Trail users are just collateral damage.
:arrow: David Bonn :idea:
Fun CH
Posts: 1440
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:22 pm
Contact:

Re: The South Creek Trail has been blocked

Post by Fun CH »

Looks like the FS could build a new trail to the south of that private property to bypass the closure. That's a fairly simple solution.

I do support a private land owners right to close public access. Lots of pages at the methownet BB screaming to take those rights away (didn't read all of it but enough to get the gist of it ). I guess that attitude works until some government body wants to take part of your land.

I should also add that some land owners close off public access because of abuses by the public to the private land. And some landowners close off public land access for the benefit of wildlife which is consistent with many of the government wildlife agencies goals to mitigate the impact of human presence.

And Alf if you're listening this issue has nothing to do with rural gentrification.
What's so funny 'bout peace love and understanding--Nick Lowe
Can't talk to a man who don't want to understand--Carol King
User avatar
pasayten
Posts: 2452
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:03 pm
Contact:

Re: The South Creek Trail has been blocked

Post by pasayten »

by alvin » Wed May 19, 2021 7:45 pm

I talked with the assessors office the other day and the property in question is Parcel #9934190010. It will not show up if you do a map search, but will if you search by parcel number. It will indicate the owners name, address, limited ownership history and taxes paid.


https://okanoganwa-taxsifter.publicacce ... 0&typeID=1

JOHNSON, JEANNE
239 ENGLAR ST A12
WINTHROP WA 98862

Sale Date Sales Document # Parcels Excise # Grantor Grantee Price
12/03/18 3231213 1 120883 ESTATE OF FRANK & DOROTHY JOHNSON JOHNSON, JEANNE $0
pasayten
Ray Peterson
User avatar
pasayten
Posts: 2452
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:03 pm
Contact:

The South Creek Trail has been blocked

Post by pasayten »

The South Creek Trail near Twisp/Chelan Sawtooth area has been blocked 2.5 miles up from the trailhead by a private landowner.

https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DO ... 910658.pdf

There is also a game camera at the closure site. Other posts say the land may be owned/managed by a Methow Valley group/family.

Voice your displeasure to the USFS: 509-996-4000.
Maybe we will get a re-route or work something out with the land owner.
pasayten
Ray Peterson
Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests